[Combined Medications] in Fish Baths

[themar47]

Greetings,

I am about to start a fish bath treatment for 5 wild adult angelfish that have been extremely reticent to eating for many weeks, some of which with sunken bellies and slow wasting. I normally would have simply fed med soaked food, but seeing how some do not eat at all, this is not an option.

My goal at this point is to aim for possible internal parasites. Due to the size of the fish and their already skittish nature, I decided to use one of the 10 gallons as a temporary holding tank that will also serve as giving the fish baths, so I do not have to move the fish every time. The tank is linked to a water change system, so water changes are quick and easy, meaning I'll be able to quickly drain the bath water to change it with new threated and heated water.

Due to the medications I currently have access to, this is the bath recipe I was planning:

- NaCl at 1tsp/Gal
- MgSO₄ at 1/4tsp/Gal
- Methylene Blue at 1mL/Gal (Instead of regular 0,5)
- SeaChem Metroplex at 2scoops/10Gal (Double Dose)
- SeaChem Paraguard at [??]

Baths would be followed by a 75% water change to eliminate most meds, this could also be done twice in a row for 94% final water change.

Here are the questions/concerns:

1) How much SC Paraguard should I use in this recipe, as on the website it is repeated in different places: ''Methylene Blue combined with a Malachite Green products such as ParaGuard (use MG at half dose)''. Taking into account that this is for baths, not long term exposure.
2) Should I be satisfied with changing only 75% of the water after the bath, or should I go for 94% (twice 75%)?
3) In this situation, taking into account limited amounts of available medication and the aimed pathogens, should I go for 1 or 2 baths per day?
4) For how long should I expect the daily baths to go for if it was to be succesful, and what should I look for to determine if it's working?

Thanks a lot, hoping this can quickly be seen!

[Carl]

Hi;
I would use the ParaGuard at 75% if a bare tank.
I would also recommend a seasoned AAP Sponge Filter if at all possible.
As for water changes I would suggest 50% along with running a quality carbon filter for at least 2 hours.

1 to 2 baths per day (whatever the fish will tolerate) for 7-10 is best
Further Reading (be careful about combing different sources of information, as accuracy of many sources in recent years has become very questionable due to how social media and internet algorithms): www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2009/07/fish-baths.html

What I would also strongly suggest for internal parasite is the use of AAP DiscoMed in the fish food
Resource:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquatronics.html#discomed

[themar47]

Hey;
Thanks a lot for the answer!
For the paraguard, I had started the first bath 100%, and then went to 200% due to not seeing any sign of stress... Should I go back down to 75%, could the increased amount be unnecesary and possibly damaging?

I run sponge filters through all the tanks, but seeing how the sponge would have to be taken out each time, I thought the 75% water changes twice a day with added Safe would be enough to control possible nitrate compounds forming; along the fact that they get very minimal amounts of food at the moment, to minimize wastes and due to most not eating at the moment anyway.

Is there any advantage to doing 2 baths over 1 in this situation? I'm currently doing 2 due to good tolerance, but with minimal metronidazole left and MB left would I better off doing only 1 bath per day to reach 7-10 days instead of the 4-5 my med stocks would currently let me do at twice a day?
In other words: Is 1 bath a day for 7-10  days better than 2 baths a day for 4-5 days?

I would have added med for sure to the food if the fish had been eating, but currently this isn't a possibility... I sent a Contact Form through the AAP website for an order since you once answered that I could order from Canada in a past post, I am missing multiple meds at the moment and adding some medicated food could be a very good thing, seeing how I could medicate all my stock quickly and easily instead of the idea I had of giving them baths in successive groups of fish from a couple holding tanks to the main ones (hoping my Contact Form message wasn't too long and hard to understand, please confirm it got sent, I had to select Alaska for the state as I had to choose one even though I'm from Canada haha)

TIA

Edit: Side note, I have read pretty much all pages on the website in the past few months, increadibly information.

It would also appear that the instructions for metroplex are now 1 to 2 scoops per 10 gallon. For a bath, should I put 2 soops only, or more, as you recommend to double the concentration of the normal dose?

[Carl]

You can go 100% of the ParaGuard if no issues with the fish, but I would not exceed this, especially if twice per day.
No more than 2 scoops of Metroplex.

The Sponge filter does not need to removed, just rinsed with used tank water. Likely the meds will lower bio effectiveness of the filter, but it will still help and roller coaster rides of Ammonia/nitrites are not healthy. The Wonder Shells also help here too, which is why I strongly recommend these based on my experience.

Twice daily baths will generally improve results, but not substantially over at least one bath per day. Also beware of over medicating, especially since you are leaving your fish in a hospital bath tank, so in your case (if I understand how you are doing this correctly), I would go with one per day.

As for ordering from AAP, I know they ship to Canada daily and contacting them is not needed to make an order, as their cart have pricing built in (unless the orders are heavy)

[themar47]

Hey Carl! Sorry for opening back this discussion a couple weeks later.

I have made a few upgrades in the fish room, mainly on the quarantine tanks. Additionally, I have ordered 2 packs of AAP Discomed, letting me treat everyone easily and quickly.

I have now confirmed the presence of Camallanus worms in my tanks by sight in most of my species, but mainly in the angelfish. Suprisingly, to this day I have only seen them come out from my captive bred ones, none from the wild caught, but this doesn't change much haha.

From what I understand, AAP Discomed should take care of that in the case of the fish that eat, which means pretty much everyone but 2 or 3 of the wild angelfish.

I was planning to add the AAP Discomed like I usually add metronidazole to my food:

1 tbsp of pellet food
1 dosing spoon of Metroplex
1 dosing spoon of Focus
1/4 tsp of Seachem Nourish
1/4 tsp of Seachem ZooPlankton

I would substitute the Metroplex for the AAP Discomed in this case, but I am not sure which quantity should be used here comparatively, and it doesn't seem to be that clear on the website. I normally prepare a batch every morning that is put in the fridge for the whole day, serving 3 times a day.

Additionally, I am wondering of the way I should try to treat the 3 wild angelfish that are off food currently. It seems that an AAP Discomed bath is a possibility, but I am not sure how effective it would be.

Their quarantine tank will be a 15 gallon that I normally use for breeding, so without substrate, sides and bottom black painted (which is pretty incredible stress wise from my experience), and 2 sponge filters.
Their baths will be done outside of the tank, in 2 gallons of water in a bucket, once a day 30 minutes after lights shut.

How would you perform their treatment, both in tank (if any) and in bath (ingredient wise with quantities)?

Finally, I was wondering for future reference: If I perform metronidazole baths, should I also treat in tank with a regular dose of metronidazole, or only in bath?

tl;dr:
1) What quantity of AAP Discomed should be used in my food mix instead of MetroPlex, and for how long?
2) What would be your treatment regimen for the 3 wild angelfish that do not eat? (15 gallon tank, 2 gallon baths, meds available: AAP Discomed, SC Metroplex, Kanaplex, Neoplex, Paraguard, Stressguard)
3) When you bath with certain meds, like metronidazole, should the holding tank also be treated at regular dose?

TIA,
Thomas

[Carl]

I would start with one capsule of DiscoMed and increase to two if results are not seen.

StressGuard is meant for use without any medication, so reserve this for before or after in tank treatment.
For in tank treatment I might suggest API/AAP General Cure

Resources:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumPharmaceuticalsAPI.html#general

Yes to your 3rd question as per baths along with in tank treatments