Having difficulty identifying disease

[mikew]

Hello - 

I am new to this forum.

I keep freshwater tropical aquariums (6)

I have been keeping fish for 52 years, plants for 17.

I am having trouble with a relatively new tank, a 300 gallon planted tank.

Ammonia 0, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 10 ppm, pH 7.0-7.1, pH controlled CO2 injection 24 hr/day. KH 7, GH 8. Temperature is 75.2 F almost perfectly constant (+/- 0.2F).

Filtration: 3X Eheim 2028's with Sicce Booster pumps, 1X 3 Stage Sump running about 1000 gallons/hour. Sump filled by Overflows skimming surface with a BEAN 3 Configuration. Substrate EcoComplete. Clean, never used in another tank - same as with all other components. Lighting, 4X Kessil 360X WiFi controlled.

Water cycled for 6 months before adding livestock (know this isn't necessary but it happened for reasons unintended, COVID, CA Fires, Etc)

Livestock: 20 Rummynose Tetra, 20 Red Eye Tetra, 6 Glowline Tetra, 5 Hatchets - spotted (Wild), ~ 15 Cory of various types, Leopard (Wild), 8 Panda Garra, 8 Plecos (mostly TR small), 3 Kuhli Loaches (Wild). Red Cherry and Amano Shrimp. Nerite Snails, pond snails.  Upon addition of first school of Cory Cats - the spawned and left eggs in 10 places around he aquarium.  I thought that perhaps the first Cory that died (a Venezuelan Cory from a school of 7) was a result of the rather heated spawning activity, but now believe that is incorrect.

Feed - Flake (high quality), NLS AlgeMax Wafers, Frozen Hikari Brine, Frozen Hikari Tubiflex.

I am losing fish between 1 and 2 a day.

At first had no idea.  Thought it was repercussions of fish shipments, and it may have been unrelated to the current disease issue.  

Then I lost a pleco - which I hadn't experienced.  Had small blotches - discolorations on its face but wasn't sure that it wasn't caused post mortem. And hard to capture in photo.

Then I lost a Cory catfish.  It had a reddened face and what appeared to be a small hole in it's cheek going into it's mouth.  Barbells 100% intact and healthy looking.

Now I getting worried so started watching behaviors very closely.  Observed another Cory flashing against substrate. 

Later I lost a Leopard Cory, reddened patch on the top of its head above the eyes. Picture attached.

Next I lost a Rummynose, reddened area near it's anal fin, but not on the fin. Picture attached.

I lost a Hatchett - this one has  the red spot - looking like septicemia in one eye! Picture attached.

Lost another Hatchet - this one had a reddish blotch on the body above the anus (Picture attached before he died).  These aren't open sores - they are red-tinged areas that seem to appear beneath the scales - the skin layer. Except for the reddened eye of the Hatchett - obviously not skin - but the eye wasn't an open lesion..

I have attached pictures, one is the tank.  Hopefully between this picture and the description and parameters above I won't get the obligatory lecture on bad husbandry, dirty water, overcrowding, unkempt, uncleanly, etc.  I have never had a problem like this - I take good care of my aquariums, I am a scientist, engineer with a PhD.  Not meaning to be grumpy, but losing fish like this breaks my heart and I really need help, not  a lecture on how important clean water with good chemistry and no pollutants are.  I understand and respect that. Please.

Here are the Pictures I hope (not used this forum before):
Any help or insight would be greatly appreciated for myself, and for my fish.

Here is what I tried so far: (I have read all the AAP site twice.  Great site, wealth of information, I will read more to make sure I have taken it all in. It is pithy)

1. API General Cure. One course (4 days, two doses, one dose every two days, per NET water volume (including Sump) according to directions from API.
2. Pima and Melafix per instructions.
After initial treatment of API General Cure - deaths dropped off.  But I wasn't confident so I decided Pima/Melafix would be a mild treatment for what perhaps be a mild condition (at this point)

Then deaths started up again.  This time with what appear to be more visible symptoms. 
So I have at the advice of an LFS owner with some experience - treat with API General Cure for 2 weeks, 7 doses every other day.

Insights, questions are eagerly accepted.  Hopefully I have provided a decent background of the tank, the water, the creatures in the tank.

Thank you very much.
Mike
Saratoga, CA

Attachments:

[devonjohnsgard]

Hi there and sorry for the delay. We have been spending more time over on Facebook, which results to delays over here.

Everything seems right.

Questions, how are you buffering your KH? Are you using Wonder Shells for GH?

I wonder about the 24/7 pH Co2 injection. Does that mean also that Co2 could be injecting at night? If the lights are off with no photosynthesis, plants will use up the O2 in the tank during this time. So, if Co2 is still being injected, I wonder if they are struggling for o2? Then you wouldn't see it during the day, when the plants are processing o2? I've had this happened with co2 injection that was left on during the night.

Does this mean the pH is swinging all day?

[Carl]

Sorry for the delay in answering too (I have mostly been on our MeWe forum

Anyway, I think Devon may have a point, I see lower oxygen levels at night due to 24/7 CO2 injection kill fish outright or in many cases simply lower oxygen levels enough to allow for opportunistic Aeromonas infections to thrive.
The fish symptoms (based on pictures shared) speak to this theory too.

Further Reading:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Vibrio_Aeromonas.html

Unfortunately General Cure will not help for this and the Melafix/Pimafix combo would maybe only help a little.

The first course of action of course would be correcting night-time oxygen levels by turning off the CO2 during dark hours

Next I would suggest a Kanamycin/ Nitrofurazone combination in the aquarium or at least a hospital tank for fish showing any symptoms.
Triple Sulfa may also be a good second choice (although this product is now discontinued by the new POTUS, so supplies are limited)

A Medicated fish bath for ALL fish may be a good idea too (I know, a lot of work for your size aquarium)

Further Reading as per baths:
www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2009/07/fish-baths.html

Product Resources:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquatronics.html#furacyn
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Seachem.html#kanaplex
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumPharmaceuticalsAPI.html#sulfa

[mikew]

Feb 5, 2021 10:36:57 GMT -5 devonjohnsgard said:

Hi there and sorry for the delay. We have been spending more time over on Facebook, which results to delays over here.

Everything seems right.

Questions, how are you buffering your KH? Are you using Wonder Shells for GH?

I wonder about the 24/7 pH Co2 injection. Does that mean also that Co2 could be injecting at night? If the lights are off with no photosynthesis, plants will use up the O2 in the tank during this time. So, if Co2 is still being injected, I wonder if they are struggling for o2? Then you wouldn't see it during the day, when the plants are processing o2? I've had this happened with co2 injection that was left on during the night.

Does this mean the pH is swinging all day?

Hi Devon -

Sorry for my own  late reply - I was expecting an email notification that someone had replied, and didn't get one. THANK YOU for your reply.

Well regarding pH - it is controlled via CO2 injection. The KH is 6.5, so that would mean the CO2 is about 15-20ppm  The fish in all my tanks are fine with this level of CO2 (see CO2 versus KH and pH ).

I can easily turn the CO2 injection off as lights go out. The pH will climb to over 8 (our water is hard and Alkaline. I add RO to it to improve the KH which is 12 out of the tap).

Using the pH-KH-CO2 relationship, the worst case CO2 concentration would be 28ppm on the high side.  Low would be about 13 ppm.  Plant growth at highest PAR indicates 15-20 ppm from my experience (this is anecdotal, not a measurement of course). This 15-20 ppm CO2 level is totally safe for the fish.

Also - I have to say that I do check the fish at night (not every night but before and since this started at least 5 times, 5 hours after lights-out (3am)): The fish are fine.  No gasping for breath, no signs of stress.  We have all seen this before, I would recognize it immediately.  Nobody wants to see it again 

The tank is an open top tank with no surface film (overflow skimmers feeding sump).  Plus, the sump injects O2 as it acts essentially like a waterfall.

With 3 Eheim 2028's and a 1000 GPH sump I have had to take measures to reduce circulation in the tank to a dull roar.

I am not sure what you mean by "pH swinging all day " but it is controlled to 7.0-7.1 which s a fairly tight range, no?

[mikew]

Feb 5, 2021 12:45:29 GMT -5 Carl said:

Sorry for the delay in answering too (I have mostly been on our MeWe forum

Anyway, I think Devon may have a point, I see lower oxygen levels at night due to 24/7 CO2 injection kill fish outright or in many cases simply lower oxygen levels enough to allow for opportunistic Aeromonas infections to thrive.
The fish symptoms (based on pictures shared) speak to this theory too.

Further Reading:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Vibrio_Aeromonas.html

Unfortunately General Cure will not help for this and the Melafix/Pimafix combo would maybe only help a little.

The first course of action of course would be correcting night-time oxygen levels by turning off the CO2 during dark hours

Next I would suggest a Kanamycin/ Nitrofurazone combination in the aquarium or at least a hospital tank for fish showing any symptoms.
Triple Sulfa may also be a good second choice (although this product is now discontinued by the new POTUS, so supplies are limited)

A Medicated fish bath for ALL fish may be a good idea too (I know, a lot of work for your size aquarium)

Further Reading as per baths:
www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2009/07/fish-baths.html

Product Resources:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquatronics.html#furacyn
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Seachem.html#kanaplex
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumPharmaceuticalsAPI.html#sulfa


Thank you Carl, for the reply and the AAP website with it's wealth of information. As I indicated to Devon, there is no O2 shortage in this tank at night.  The CO2 levels well in the safe zone, the top is agitated and clean (no surface film), no stagnant water, O2 injection through sump "waterfall".

I arrived (through your posts on AAP website) at the same treatment, however I have not embarked on  the treatment because I cannot get consistent answer to the key question: Is Kanamycin/ Nitrofurazone combination safe for Inverts and plants?  There are a LOT of conflicting answers on the Web.  The best first hand answers seem to indicate people have had good experiences with Fish, Shrimp and Snails. This tank has 35 Amano and CRS, and 35 Nerite snails. As you indicated pulling he tank apart in an attempt to find the Shrimp is pretty much not going to happen, same for getting the fish out.  There is about 250 lbs of decorative rock in the tank with lots of areas of retreat for the fish. If they were Oscars, Angels or the like - sure no problem.  But they are tiny Tetras, Corys, and barbs.

I suppose the only practical thing to do would be to prepare for the loss of the Shrimp and Snails if the answer is that Kanamycin/Nitrofurazone isn't safe for them.  I could pull the plants, but that too would be a nightmare.  

This isn't my biggest tank.  I knew what I was up against when I built another big tank, but never had this kind of problem before. Not in over 50 years.

Again - thanks.  Any chance you have a definitive answer to the question of safety for the Invertibrates and Plants?

Also - does AAP sell bulk quantities of AAP Spectrogram for treatment of large environments like this?

Mike

[devonjohnsgard]

7.0 to 7.1 isn't bad. Have you checked when photosynthesis period is done (night time) too?

I wonder if you could measure 02 at night, it would be lowered?

[Carl]

Currently Spectrogram is not available in any amount due to new rules affecting small aquarium sellers of pharm grade products.

As per the combination, nitrofurazone can burn back plants and MAY harm snails, but is definitely not good fro shrimp, so I would not use with shrimp (maybe move them or move the fish to a smaller tank)