Difficulties performing swab on a pre-dropsy (?) fish

[chikkuntakos]

Hello!...

So my ~15 y/o gray goldfish has been alive and kicking since the last time I posted on the forum, but he's been really out-of-it since I did a MB bath/dip earlier this afternoon.   (Finally mustered up the courage to do the darn bath/swab... But more like I was scared into doing it, due to my fish recently appearing to slowly decompensate with additional illnesses.)

The plastic bin I used to capture/ hold the fish probably had 1.25 gallons of tank water. I didn't count the # of MB drops; initially I intended 2-3 but it kind of came out in a dribble in my hurry. I also added ~0.625 tsp aquarium salt and 0.25 tsp Epsom salt (pre-dissolved while setting up for the ordeal).


Question #1. Has anyone ever encountered difficulties when trying to swab/scrub off a white infected patch on a fish? (Suspected Saprolegnia or columnaris)  I kept my fish in a MB bath while trying to swab off the white patch on its vent (and a small growth on its lip), but it wouldn't come off!!

I first used a squishy makeup sponge doused with AAP Wound Control; when that did nothing I tried a cotton square drenched in AAP Wound Control for a little more friction; when that didn't work I grabbed a soft toothbrush that had been dipped in Wound Control... And after all my efforts I can't say I really saw any significant results.  The weirdest thing when using the toothbrush... It was as if the white patch was buried underneath a very stubborn slime coat that would never thin out!

Granted, when using the toothbrush I didn't use much force because my fish's belly felt super distended. I expected to brush against a solid surface, but was shocked when it felt like I was brushing a blob of Jell-O. Maybe I could've scrubbed harder, but I worried that if I did so, I'd accidentally crush or distend one of its internal organs or something. Should I attempt another surface swab with different technique or more force, or is this normal?


Question #2.  Due to how distended my fish's belly is, and how much more bloated he appears in photos compared to a month ago despite attempted treatments with various antibiotics (and slightly reduced food portions in case I'd been overfeeding), I suspect he's in a pre-dropsy state despite the lack of pineconing and his zeal for food. Or maybe he actually has dropsy, and is just the early stages.

Does anyone know if MB/ epsom salt baths/dips a good or bad idea for palliative care, if this poor fish is nearing the end of the road? I can't imagine being super bloated is comfortable. I was thinking of attempting another MB dip, only without aquarium salt for next time to see if he tolerates that better... 


Question #3.  Since I'm here... Anyone have a clue what these white splotches on its scales are? (attached) This is a pretty recent development, probably within the last week or so. I've been giving full-strength Paraguard, which my fish now seems to tolerate just fine ever since I gave up on getting aquarium salt to a recommended prophylactic level. Not sure if the Paraguard is doing anything, but due to suspecting that my fish has an ich infection, I had been planning to go for Seachem's 28-day treatment recommendation per their website.


Thank you for reading this post and for any insight you might have!

Attachments:

[devonjohnsgard]

Its hard to see in the picture. They are bury when I blow them up.

Is the white fuzzy?

Your not going to be able to scrub the fizz or patch off. The point is just to get the meds directly on the area.

What are your parameters, what have they been, diet, etc?

What have you been doing for a n tank treatment also/

Here's a helpful starting point.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=lt1fznuKi2E

www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2016/09/how-to-treat-sick-fish.html

[Carl]

AAP Wound Control is basically an antiseptic, so immediate results would not be seen and should not be forced.
Getting past any slime is important and this can keep any treatment from reaching the area of infection, just be as gentle as you can (often easier said than done).

Dropsy is best helped by baths containing salts (NaCl & Epsom), increased salts in the aquarium (NaCl), as well as medicated feedings with products such as Neomycin and/or Metronidazole.

Diet also plays a major role here too, so making sure to use a low energy and high fiber diet such as AAP Herbivore is suggested

References/Resources:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Vibrio_Aeromonas.html
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/ParadigmFoods.html

[chikkuntakos]

Ack meant to reply sooner but school's been insane.

Thanks for answering my question about results with Wound Control.

It turns out that 2 days after the MB/NaCl/Epsom salt bath, the sparse, small white patches on the fish's scales essentially disappeared completely! (Not sure if this fact helps with identifying the white.) As of today, the only remnants are small splotches on like 2 of its tail scales, so if they don't resolve I was thinking of doing another bath/dip at some point. They don't appear fuzzy.

The mystery white patch on its lip and vent area are still there. The spot on its lip has thinned out over time (maybe also because the fish has taken efforts to try rubbing it off its face), but it appears that the white patch on its vent has gotten noticeably larger since swabbing (though possibly also thinner), for some reason... But at some point I'll be doing another bath/dip and trying a cotton swab with MethyBlu first before using Merbromin.

I have also recently been suspecting that my fish is actually female and the cause of it getting fat is impacted eggs... When brushing, I noticed the fish's vent seemed to be an "outie" rather than an "innie." Due to the fish's swim bladder issues, will try out Herbivore.

Have you heard anything about intentionally withholding food from a female goldfish to help stimulate the reabsorption of impacted eggs?



With testing parameters, the only time I've been able to squeeze in time is pretty much on the day before scheduled water changes.
-pH has consistently been 8.0
-free ammonia is kind of a mystery because it might be permanently stained green because I forgot to remove Ammonia Alert when I used a medicated Wonder Shell. NH3/NH4+ had gotten crazy in the past few times I tested, but free ammonia has never gotten dark blue
-nitrites get to 0.5ppm the night before a scheduled water change
-nitrates are a mystery, I've never seen the color become anything but light orange, even when the water gets a little cloudy-looking.
-got a thermometer for my tank recently! temperatures have probably regularly been like 68-71 degs F.
-KH has been around 125ppm. GH has always literally been off the charts and has always exceeded 400ppm. Basically, 22 drops to get a color change for what that's worth.
-fish's diet has mostly been API Premium  was eating mostly API Sinking Pellets. Due to recent swim bladder issues, I've been feeding the fish only peas the last few days. 

[Carl]

Have you heard anything about intentionally withholding food from a female goldfish to help stimulate the reabsorption of impacted eggs?

Yes I have, but I have never performed this or have known anyone I trust who has done this effectively. So I cannot say yes or no

As for diet, I would try the Herbivore, as the API diet is much too low in fiber (although often with issues where diet plays a role, changing diet once the problems have surfaced is too late)

[chikkuntakos]

Got it, and understood. Thanks for your input as always!

The local fish shop only had Kanaplex in stock the day I visited so I'd begun a 7-day medicated food treatment to at least try ruling out a swim bladder infection as a cause of the fish's balance/ swimming issues. (I've seen this fish ingest its own poop without spitting it out on multiple occasions. ) Will probably try out Metroplex if Kanaplex doesn't end up working. Leaning towards metronidazole only because it seems to be a preferred antibiotic for treating human intestinal infections LOL. But I wonder if kidney function decreases with age in fish, just like in humans... (Considering factor for the use of Neoplex.)

After addressing swim bladder issues, will probably shift my focus back to the mystery lesion covering the fish's vent, if the fish seems in good spirits. Today the patch definitely looked larger and "puffier"... And actually slightly blue/grey in color in certain parts, which is new. Wondering if the sudden rapid growth of the main white patch is due to all the natural sugars from the (organic frozen) sweet green peas I'd been feeding it these past few days (which would be expected to fuel bacterial and/or fungal growth).   So it'll be nice to offer the fish something fibrous with less sugar, e.g. Herbivore.

I thought the "white patch" possibly looked fuzzy in daylight which is more consistent with Saprolegnia than Columnaris, but I wasn't able to see any filaments poking out from the patch even with my nose nearly pressed up against my tank. And the fish had been receiving Paraguard for a week and the surface area of the growth still increased so significantly... (Patch is now about the size of my ring finger from the tip to the top knuckle, instead of just the fingernail.) Sigh. Oh welpz, one step at a time~

[Carl]

Will probably try out Metroplex if Kanaplex doesn't end up working. Leaning towards metronidazole only because it seems to be a preferred antibiotic for treating human intestinal infections LOL.

I definitely agree that Metroplex is a good choice here for fish food.

Although AAP Discomed is an excellent choice based its mix of ingredients
Ingredients: 250 mg Capsules of Water Soluble Levamisol, NaCl, Piperazine, Magnesium Sulfate and Neomycin Sulfate Activity (pharmaceutical grade)

www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquatronics.html#discomed
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Seachem.html#metronidazole