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Post by chikkuntakos on Jan 15, 2020 7:03:13 GMT -5
Hello! I don't know if I'm worrying prematurely, but my gray goldfish's white/gray splotches (suspected columnaris) don't seem to be improving much, if at all, despite using Spectrogram. I was wondering if anyone had ideas for what to try next... The first dose didn't seem to do much if anything; just gave the second dose yesterday afternoon and am crossing my fingers for better results. In general, how do you know if a columnaris infection is healing, and how long should that process take if using the correct antibiotic? If the first complete round of Spectrogram has minimal results, does that mean I should look at switching to an antibiotic with dominantly gram-positive coverage instead? (Given that Spectrogram is supposed to be super effective against gram-negative bacteria, if there are only barely-noticeable improvements, does that mean the infecting pathogen is likely not actually Columnaris or Aeromonas?) My "goldfish" is probably about 13-14" when its tail fin is fully stretched out. It was recently moved out from a 10 gallon tank, and is currently in a 20 gallon tank. (Infection had appeared when fish was in 10g tank.) Due to my fish's large size and its skittish personality, I'd been reluctant to consider swabbing or doing a bath/dip, but I may have no choice... Would methylene blue or H2O2 be the better choice? The white/gray patch is probably the size of my ring fingernail, but I have no idea how deep the bacteria has made it into my fish's skin... I've attached a picture of the white/gray patch on his vent area. My fish also has some form of cottonmouth, which appears as a white line on its upper lip, maybe about 4mm long. (FYI the pink-looking part of photo is a non-slip grip that the aquarium sits on... Just thought to explain that because the photo got imported at a weird angle.) Treatments attempted: - First intended to slowly increase aquarium salt to 1 tbsp/5 gallon dosing, but my fish would become super agitated and "violent" with even small doses of salt (dissolved in water), so I was too scared to continue increasing. (But now that the fish seems more energetic due to being in a larger tank, I'm planning to try that target salt dose over several days... Plus there's the fact that the antibiotic hasn't seemed to wipe out the infection as I imagined/ hoped it would.) - Two days later, Paraguard arrived in the mail. Maintained salt levels and treated with Paraguard for 8 days. White patches (mouth and vent) may have gotten a little smaller, but seemed to return to original size by the 8th day of Paraguard. Or there was really no difference. Did like 25% water changes every other day while using Paraguard. - Moved fish into a 20 gallon tank, filled maybe with 18 gallons of water. Added one small Wonder Shell. Used two capsules for the 1st dose of Spectrogram later that night; two days later did a ~25% water change before the 2nd dose, which I increased to three capsules due to not noticing a real difference after the 1st dose. Will add another small Wonder Shell later today, and then give the 3rd dose tomorrow. No water quality measurements because my dad refused to let me buy a test kit (he stubbornly insists that goldfishies only need clean/ new water, and test kits are a waste of money)...we'd even gotten into a fight over it. But in his defense, it's because of his care that the goldfish has been able to make it to 15 years so far. I basically messed things up because of my incomplete knowledge of the Nitrogen Cycle. I stupidly added probiotic balls that were marketed as impossible-to-overdose into my fish's lots-of-organic-debris-and-not-cleaned-10g tank... Which stressed the f*** out of my fish likely due to ammonia/nitrite/nitrate surging. It was a few days later that I noticed a small white splotch on the fish's lips, that I wasn't sure if it was cottonmouth or had always been there. After a few days and lots of research, I decided to initiate treatment with aquarium salt/ Paraguard, just in case. By the time Paraguard arrived in the mail and before I used it, I saw the white patch on the fish's vent. The white patch, at least in the photo I took that day, looks thinner than it does now. And the patch refuses to shrink, except on occasion where the fish's poop pushes some of it away from the vent.
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Jan 15, 2020 9:55:35 GMT -5
Hello! And welcome to the forum.
It's really hard to see the picture. I'm not sure if I see columnaris.
It does take a full round to know if there's really progress or not.
Considering you've had problems before, I would suggest parameter readings. More so, because medication can wipe out your cycle very quickly and treatments are so much less successful if your battling water parameters too.
Reading parameters can be optional if you not having problems and know your keeping all parameters including GH and KH. It is a requirement during cycling and medicating.
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Post by Carl on Jan 15, 2020 17:31:19 GMT -5
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Post by chikkuntakos on Jan 16, 2020 7:19:55 GMT -5
Thank you for the warm welcomes and your thoughtful advice! I've tried reposting the photo plus others. The quality kind of stinks due to my phone's lens being scratched up and not focusing properly. But if you think greater photo clarity would help assess the problem / help determine what to do from here, I can grab a family member's phone and take pictures. - "fish mouth": a very rare front shot of my fish at this angle, as he shields it from view like 95% of the time and doesn't like looking at my phone camera. A picture showing the white splotch on his upper lip.
- "fish butt 1": view of the fish's belly side as he dove down looking for food. Right below the anal fin, you can see a gray-ish oval that covers where the vent is supposed to be. This is the primary site that I stare at every day, when trying to assess if the infection has gotten better or worse.
- "fish butt 2": almost a pointless picture due to grainy picture quality, but shows that the white/gray patch isn't flat... there's a little dimension to it.
Thanks to your urging, I went ahead and bought the API water quality test kit. I only just realized it doesn't measure GH or KH... Will look into options for buying tests for that. Water Quality:pH: 8.0 ammonia, NH3/NH4+: 1.0ppm (eep!) nitrite: looked kind of between 0 ppm and 0.25ppm nitrate: 5ppm --> Regarding NH3/NH4+, yikes! But... I've also been using Seachem Prime to (temporarily) neutralize NH3. When I came back home last night, the fishy was notably more sluggish than the previous day... So I added a little bit of Prime and Tetra Safestart Plus thinking that the ammonia levels was causing this behavior. I got home late and did the water test even later, so I held off on changing the water due to my home only dispensing freezing water at night. But I had plans to change out the water later today, anyhow, before giving Spectrogram. Follow-up questions: 1. After the 3rd dose of Spectrogram today (and waiting a day after), would it be best to hold off on actual antibiotic tank treatment until the "ammonia" reading stabilizes closer to zero, given that high ammonia causes most antibiotic treatments to fail? 2. Around what "ammonia" (NH3 plus NH4+, since that's what the kit measures...) level have you generally noticed a disruption of antibiotic effectiveness? 3. When preparing water changes, what are your thoughts on heating some water up on a stove to be mixed with colder water? The internet has ruled against microwaving water, and I'm trying to think of ways to not wait for hours for water to warm up to room temperature.
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Post by Carl on Jan 16, 2020 12:07:55 GMT -5
I am not a big fan of the API Master Test as it leaves off these two important water parameters often giving those who use it a false sense of security when everything else tests out. I generally recommend the API 5 in 1 strips along with the SeaChem Ammonia alert which tests only NH3 Recommended reading: www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2007/02/aquarium-test-kits.htmlAs per ammonia, anything over .5 ppm and you will affect the effectiveness of a cure from my experience. Changing 25% of the water (or more) 15-30 minutes prior to each dose while using Prime (as well as AAP Res-Q) would be my suggestion Microwaving water is not a problem or any other method of heating just to add to cool water, Just make sure to mix it with your hand to make sure that there are no warm areas. Sadly the microwave thing is another internet myth with no science behind it other than any hot water being added directly to the aquarium and then injuring fish. As for the photos, these helped a little, but still were not magnified enough to tell enough for sure. However from what I do see, I more suspect Saprolegnia/Fungus and I also suspect your fish' age is also playing a major role as well as high ammonia If Saprolegnia, the Spectrogram is not as useful, better would be a Medicated Wonder Shell with Triple sulfa and Super Ich or Paraguard. PolyGuard is another option (as well as definitely the swabbing with AAP Wound Control) & Medicated Fish Baths Further Reading: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Columnaris.html#funguswww.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2009/07/fish-baths.htmlResources: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/MedicatedWonderShell.htmlwww.americanaquariumproducts.com/Seachem.html#polyguardwww.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumPharmaceuticalsAPI.html#sulfaRegards; Carl
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Post by chikkuntakos on Jan 17, 2020 6:24:59 GMT -5
I had wondered about the possibility of Saprolegnia, but I never once saw white filaments sticking out from the patches, during my fish-staring sessions. Maybe early-stage Saprolegnia resembles columnaris? But I HAVE recently noticed the appearance of long-ish thin filament-like things floating around in the tank in the daytime... If a timeline helps , I attempted aquarium salt on 1/2/2020, meaning I was concerned about potential cottonmouth 2-3 days before that. I first noticed the patch on its rear on 1/4/2020, and so far, I don't think it's gotten significantly better or worse, despite treatment attempts mentioned earlier. Today after using a phone camera with better zoom, I noticed the fish having the beginnings of a splotch on his lower lip too... The patch covering its vent appears to have shrunk a little according to the photo, but at this rate, it doesn't look like a 2nd round of Spectrogram would take care of this mystery infection. Maybe these additional photos can help with assessing the kind of infection my fish is dealing with? Today I got decent pictures of the fish's face, while I could only get photos of its rear when it quickly scuttled away...hence the still-blurry nature of those photos. 1) When treating Saprolegnia, any thoughts on choosing between API's Triple Sulfa versus Seachem's Sulfaplex? 2) Also, does one run the risk of an interaction between the copper in the Medicated Wonder Shell with Paraguard? A Seachem help post mentioned the necessity of avoiding the use of cupramine with Paraguard. Copper is related to cupramine, so I wondered... Side note: Seachem's free-ammonia reader thing and some 5-in-1 strips are supposed to come in the mail later today... In the meanwhile, water parameters about 1 hour after the roughly 40% water change: pH: 8.0 NH3/NH4: 0.5 ppm nitrite: 0 ppm nitrate: 5 ppm
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Jan 17, 2020 12:45:00 GMT -5
Looks more like fungus to me too. Carl linked to a great article to help with treatment.
Consider Carl's store for things like test kits. Orders usually will be there 2-3 business days.
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Post by Carl on Jan 17, 2020 13:12:04 GMT -5
These pictures are better but still are not 100% clear for diagnosis. Part of my reason to suspect Saprolegnia is based on the lack of effectiveness for AAP Spectrogram which is highly effective for Columnaris, assuming all other procedures and water issues are addressed as per the article steps. Reference: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Columnaris.html#treatment1As well, your point earlier that you obtained some results with the use of ParaGuard tells me that this is less likely to be Columnaris, since ParaGuard has basically zero effectiveness here. Did you obtain fresh AAP Spectrogram from American Aquarium Products? As per Medicated Wonder Shells, the amount of copper is low and we have used these many times with ParaGuard & even more so AAP Super Ich Plus Devon makes a good point here, while certainly supporting your local stores is very important, however if you have order online, why not support those that spend a lot of time & effort in these forums and regularly researched and updated articles. Reference: www.fish-as-pets.com/2018/03/buying-aquarium-products-via-amazon.htmlCarl
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Post by parker002 on Jan 17, 2020 16:13:23 GMT -5
I've never had an order take more than a few days to get to me. Usually I get stuff before I'm even expecting it. The service is always exceptional.
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Post by chikkuntakos on Jan 17, 2020 19:38:12 GMT -5
Thank you everyone for your input! I actually hope it's Saprolegnia instead of Columnaris, given its less-deadly nature. Yes, I purchased Spectrogram from AAP, and will make another order after reading through the material and settling on what to use. I'm just about out of the small Wonder shells, anyhow, and will be trying to work my way up to a more appropriate "dose" of the shells given that my first attempt with antibiotics (and a strong one, at that!) didn't work out. As of today, a little less than 24hrs after the third Spectrogram dose, I'm still not certain whether the patches have shrunk or not... But it does seem that maybe it has, a little? The (strongly) recommended procedures and water parameters according to the Columnaris article were NOT met when I initiated treatment. This is why I wondered if I should buy another set of Spectrogram pills for when water parameters did get met... But right now, I think it makes most sense for me to treat the infection as if it were Saprolegnia and see how things develop from there. I'm still a bit reluctant to attempt a swab if it can be avoided, for the sole reason that it will stress out the bejeezus out of my fish (and his owners, haha). I found the ideas posted online on your site really helpful about containing a large fish. I'll just need to find a clear container large/deep enough to scoop up the fish... If an uncooperative fish is thrashing around and the swab accidentally touches one of his eyeballs, would Methylene Blue 5% be a safer option, or is Merbromin/Wound Control still recommended? I'll probably be the one to hold down the fish/ press it against one side of the container and get my dad to swab, as I imagine he wouldn't exactly be gentle if he had to be the one to hold the fish. And I want to spare my dad from the inevitable splash zone as much possible to avoid him from getting mad at the fish.
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Post by chikkuntakos on Jan 17, 2020 20:09:27 GMT -5
*Oops, meant methylene blue 2%, or whatever AAP sells.
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Post by Carl on Jan 18, 2020 14:04:01 GMT -5
Merbromin/Wound Control is 100% safe for the eyes. It is also noteworthy that you can use both MethyBlu and Wound Control. Wound Control is stronger and much more wide spectrum, however using a swab of MB first lets you know how damaged the tissue is as healthy tissue will not stain, while unhealthy tissue will stain blue.
As for another round of AAP Spectrogram, if you feel your parameters are in better shape, yes this would be a worth while attempt and I would suggest a double dose this time too.
Finally, and while I am sure this is not what you would like to read, but the age of this poor goldfish may be a reason for this problem and often other than making water conditions 100% perfect, there is little you can do
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Post by chikkuntakos on Jan 19, 2020 6:54:38 GMT -5
No worries Carl, I'm just really thankful that you've been helping me navigate options for my fishy, and really thankful for everyone's input and your encyclopedic website. And that you've been patiently tolerating my long posts and endless questions... If optimal water conditions only ends up being best for an older fish, then that's what I gotta do... If/when he passes, I'd like him to not be super stressed out and agitated. I just want his last days to be happy and/or peaceful ones, whenever they come. He just seems crazy sensitive to so many "ordinary" treatments. But when I'm not treating the water with salt or meds, he seems reasonably active and happy (albeit itchy... he seems to rub his mouth on the aquarium walls a fair bit). To speak to Spectrogram's gentleness, he seemed to tolerate Spectrogram pretty well around a normal dose of 2 capsules/ 18 gallons. But he would become noticeably lethargic for hours when I increased the dose to 3 capsules/ 18 gallons; he'd also stop greeting me for dinner (though he'd still eat). And yesterday, after increasing the total salt content of the aquarium by 1 tsp (to about 4.7 teaspoons total in 18 gallons of water, which is just halfway to my target of 9 teaspoons which is appropriate for 15 gallons of water), I seriously worried he was near death's door due to slow, uneven and shallow "breathing" plus marked lethargy and clamped fins. Fortunately, he seemed to return to "normal" like 2 hours after a 20% water change today, even though I replaced the salt that was lost during the change... This probably means increasing by 1 teaspoon/ day is too much for him. Not to mention, he didn't even really tolerate Paraguard at full dose, either -- had to slowly work my way up to not-even-full-dose. Before making my next order, I had some more questions if you don't mind... (Sorry!) 1. How harsh (or gentle) does API Triple Sulfa seem to be on fish, based on your experience using it? I saw one internet post saying Triple Sulfa was rough for fish but effective... So I considered using Seachem's Sulfaplex instead, with medicated shells and maybe 1/4 Paraguard dose. Then again, there was another internet post about Sulfaplex being so mild it does nothing. I also have Pimafix on hand, but never used it due to Seachem emphasizing they had no safety data about combining their products with non-Seachem products... 2. Does AAP Wound Control sting for fish when applied? Not sure how reliable this source is, but it says that mercurochrome stings if prepared as an alcohol or acetone tincture, but not if it's water based. I'm already kind of nervous about handling a large thrashing goldfish (he gets nervous easily), and don't know if I'll be able to keep him from hurting himself, if he starts going full-strength crazy on me. Based on videos I've seen of people giving fish methylene blue baths, I'm guessing that MethyBlu definitely won't sting? 3. Suddenly thought that Epsom salt dips can be used by humans to help relieve itching from foot fungus... Was wondering some Epsom salts added to the aquarium might also provide comfort to an itchy fish. If so, would you happen to know if it is safe to combine Epsom salt with aquarium salt and (medicated) Wonder Shells?
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Jan 20, 2020 9:47:27 GMT -5
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Post by Carl on Jan 20, 2020 10:26:42 GMT -5
API Tripe Sulfa contains Sulfathiazole, Sodium Sulfamethazine, Sodium Sulfacetamide while SeaChem Sulfaplex is just sulfathiazole. I personally have had the best results with blends with more types of sulfa (there used to be a sulfa with 4 that was the most effective) I've combined with Pimafix, but found no benefit and did not do this enough to say that is is safe AAP Wound control is water based as it would not be safe with alcohol or acetone in an aquarium. This is why NOT to use human based preparations As for Epsom Salts, it has many used, including in the Medicated Fish Food "AAP Discomed" Resource: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquatronics.html#discomedUse is described here: www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2009/07/fish-baths.html
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Post by chikkuntakos on Jan 20, 2020 16:34:50 GMT -5
Thanks for all your guys' help! Keeping my fingers crossed and hoping this will knock things out.
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