Sorry :( more betta trouble tail torn to the base

[flyingbettas]

Dear Carl and Devon,

last night while cleaning the tank I left a siphon tube unattended because all the detritus were out and I just needed a little more water out


the copper halfmoon swam into the tube, the suction was strong and it latched onto his tail. He struggled and swam away in panic, and tore his tail.

the worst part, a piece is torn out exposing the flesh at the base of his tail ( that part is called the caudal peduncle i think). Not excessive amount 1/16 or 1/8 of an inch at the most. some bleeding. He was stunned afterward for a bit, but acted relatively normal apart from slowing down and settling on the bottom more.

I added salt to the water at 1tsp/ gal, dosed in tank dosage of methylene blue and Seachem Stressguard. 

Turned off the light and let him sleep. He is now asleep in his favorite tree. Since this whole ordeal was probably really awful I let him sleep, apologize for no picture.

what do we do next now to prevent infection from setting in? ( apart from the basics such as frequent water change)

I want to make sure I don't end up too heavy handed with med, yet not too little med allowing infection to set in. This copper is on a med break now after full course of kanaplex and erythromycin for his septicemia. 

Thank you so much. I really dont know why there are all kinds of disaster these days and apologize we somehow could not manage to stay out of trouble and thus keep bothering you guys.

[Carl]

I would add Res-Q (directly if possible). Adding Melafix or Triple Sulfa is a good idea too.

www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquatronics.html#resq
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumPharmaceuticalsAPI.html

Carl

[devonjohnsgard]

! Very sorry this happened.

[flyingbettas]

Devon and Carl,

Thanks for the kind words. I come to a sad realization that while halfmoon and rosetails are beautiful, having so much tail is not so good for the fish. This fish ( I named him saturn) is not very maneuverable and swimming seems to be a chore for him. Kind of like what it would be like if I try to run with a poofy ball gown on. A lot of decorations are off limit to him.

I am sorry I did not respond immediately. So worried about him, and felt so terrible about myself for being a bad fish parent.

New developments ...which I find worrisome

As of today, the rear ( close to the tail) part of his dorsal fin start to shred and rot. And also, a scale from his left flank came off exposing flesh. We put another airstone in his tub and it seems like he likes to play in it. He would wrap himself around the airstone and hang out in the corner sandwiched between the tub and airstone. Well. Some odd behaviors were seen after that airstone went in. I tried not to be too worried, because if I nudge him out of that spot he swam right back into it.

Also he starts to sometime double up on himself as if trying to chase after his rear end/trying to bite it. I had never seen him do that prior to the injury. Sometimes he stays folded in that position for a couple seconds.

He swims around still, come to me when called , and have healthy appetite. Seem less lethargic now that i do 40% water change daily. However shredded dorsal fin and missing scale made me reevaluate. The additional airstone was therefore removed this evening in case it has anything to do with new injuries.

Questions, like always

1. Do you think he is trying to bite his penduncle where the tail was torn off, due to irritation? Is there anything bad going on that I am missing that would produce this symptoms?
2. I have Enrofloxacin on hand, after taking him to the vet Friday. The vet prescribed enrofloxacin. She recommends switching antibiotics since Saturn had been on 2 full courses with Spectogram, but told us to go ahead and stay on sulfa ( same as you advised ) and only use Enrofloxacin if he does not improve in a week.
To your knowledge can Enrofloxacin be combined with medicated wonder shell? I got good results in all my fish with spectogram and mws, so reluctant to switch.
3 can I swab his tail stub ( peduncle) with merbromin? How about the spot where he tore his scale off where flesh is exposed on his body?
4. The tail stub, now 4 days after the injury, start to darken and look less raw. ( the last couple days the cross section looks like raw wound with a red spot of blood-- kind of like what a blood spot on your finger tip would look like if you prick yourself with a pin. Does this sound normal?

I am soory I have no good picture. The way the tail was torn made me very reluctant to get him out into a container for picture. I fear that if he panic and try to swim around hard he can rip another narrow piece that is still attached out expising more peduncle

Appreciate your help as always.

Attachments:

[devonjohnsgard]

Sounds like some progress is being made.

People say that the fish will try to bite it's own fine, but I think this is more a myth.

I would swab with merbromin.

The healing of the injury sounds like it's on track!

[flyingbettas]

Thanks Devon.

I agree that if tail starts to shred or miss chunks we are dealing with bacteria. However I was just wondering if he might be feeling irritation in his damaged tail stub or fin rot hence the attempt to scratch, and wonder if that is a bad sign since this behavior is new.

Carl wrote in one of his articles merbromin should not be used on large open wound, and in the case of large wound methyblu would be safer. Since you reviewed the pictures and said we should swab we will go forward. But, we just want to know-- how large or how deep a wound would be too large/deep/ open for merbromin? Maybe quote by body percentage? Bettas are so small and something that look small to us sometimes is quite a large body percentage to them.

[Carl]

Jun 26, 2019 14:26:08 GMT -5 flyingbettas said:

Thanks Devon.

I agree that if tail starts to shred or miss chunks we are dealing with bacteria. However I was just wondering if he might be feeling irritation in his damaged tail stub or fin rot hence the attempt to scratch, and wonder if that is a bad sign since this behavior is new.

Carl wrote in one of his articles merbromin should not be used on large open wound, and in the case of large wound methyblu would be safer. Since you reviewed the pictures and said we should swab we will go forward. But, we just want to know-- how large or how deep a wound would be too large/deep/ open for merbromin? Maybe quote by body percentage? Bettas are so small and something that look small to us sometimes is quite a large body percentage to them.

Merbromin is OK on most all wounds (if you could point out where I stated this, as maybe my wording needs improving), it is Potassium Permanganate you need to be careful with in using on exposed tissue


As for Enrofloxacin, I would use the Medicated Wonder Shell AFTER finishing with this product (which is an excellent antibiotic)

Carl

[flyingbettas]

Thank you Carl

[flyingbettas]

He is taking the swab like a champ ( the swab really helps stop the fin rot ). However he flopped around a lot on his way out of the tub today and tore a scale halfway out. Either I learn to handle him a little better or sedate him. Not much harm done though, really, no clamped fin and eating/ sleeping, hanging out like normal.

[Carl]

Jun 28, 2019 5:41:42 GMT -5 flyingbettas said:

He is taking the swab like a champ ( the swab really helps stop the fin rot ). However he flopped around a lot on his way out of the tub today and tore a scale halfway out. Either I learn to handle him a little better or sedate him. Not much harm done though, really, no clamped fin and eating/ sleeping, hanging out like normal.

I would apply Res-Q upon returning the fish to the aquarium (even if not injured in the process)
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquatronics.html#resq


Carl

[flyingbettas]

Carl,

We will apply Res-Q as instructed.

When applying Res-Q, just want to clarify one more time, can we apply straight undiluted Res-Q from the bottle on the fish?
Is it ok if it gets on the body if applied undiluted? How about the gills?
Bettas are small and it is hard to keep liquid medicine from spreading all over them. i just want to make sure,

If he goes from the swabbing procedure into enrofloxacin bath, can res -q be used prior to putting him into enrofloxacin bath? Or shoud we do it like this instead : enrofloxacin bath, swab, res-q, back to hospital tank.

Thanks and have a good weekend!

[devonjohnsgard]

Res-q can be dropped right onto the tail without being diluted. I would stay away from the gills if you can help it. Do it after the bath right before going into the tank.

[Carl]

Jun 29, 2019 10:30:56 GMT -5 flyingbettas said:

Carl,

Or should we do it like this instead : enrofloxacin bath, swab, res-q, back to hospital tank.

Yes, undilluted directly on the fish. As well unlike some meds, it will not be a concern if it also gets on the gills (although I do not aim for the gills)

Carl

[flyingbettas]

Carl,

I am so sorry I disappeared. Treating sick fish is so stressful....mentally and financially. Sometimes I don't even want to talk about it.

Well I am back here with mostly good news.

Merbromin swab , res-q and stressguard took care of the fin rot. I am happy to report he is 95% well and will be moved to a 10g soon

I have one quick question,

Well he got well and I got myself into some trouble ( despite really minor...or so it seems)

I was gone for three and a half day last weekend and while gone I kept the water @76f. I have tried stretching the water change to 3 days before and did not see any ammonia when test with a test kit. The sponge filter in there is basically dead-- no bacteria because of so many doses of antibiotics.

Upon return minor fraying is observed on the dorsal fin. Very minor, as in the tip of 4-5 rays started to erode thin and the webbing between the fins look more like a V shape rather than a shallow u shape curve. Apologize for no picture, it is so minor I dont think I can get it to show. He has some rosetail gene too so unless he is swimming just right you can't capture it in pictures.

What would you suggest for this? I really want to move him to a big tank and I am really not going to want to medicate the 10g with a newly established bio filter- for fear of nuking that newly established filter!

Thanks!

[Carl]

I would suggest Res-Q (primarily a water conditioner) and AAP/SeaChem StressGuard

Resources:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquatronics.html
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Seachem.html#stressguard

Reference:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquarium_Disease.html#onhandtreatments

Carl

[flyingbettas]

Thank you! Will do