Post by flyingbettas on Jun 13, 2019 14:05:29 GMT -5
Dear All, ( esp. Carl and Devon!!)
My other betta ( Turbo) was developing a mild fin rot. Lesson learned here is next time we will fishless cycle and bettas will be put in 2.5 gallon bowl with twice weekly water change. We prime while cycling but still ends up with mild fin rot.
and here comes the bad part.
I got so much success with neosporin on the halfmoon turquoise that I was trying to just see if swabbing this one and keeping the water super clean will be enough, without using any in tank treatment. So I swab his tail with methylene blue and neosporin cream. The one difference here is this time I used the cream formulation and not the oinment as I did with my other fish.
note that I swabbed this fish's tail before with neosporin oinment and he was fine, apart from being upset with me and hiding for about 20 minutes after he would come back out and swim around just like always.
that neosporin cream burned his tail. Immediately after the swab he became listless and started sinking to the bottom. The area that contacted the cream changed color ( the first 8 hours they turned from dark cobalt blue to this gold/green/ teal then after that black. In 24 hours the burned areas of the tail falls off , and if I pick these bits out of the tank and crush them between my fingers they turn into black crumbly dust just like soot)
So here is what was done 30 minutes after the swab immediately after I noticed something was wrong.
1. Took him out, used wet cotton balls to try to dab as much cream off his tail as possible
2. Methylene blue bath and using straight methylene blue to swab his tail. I just used a syringe and tried to wash his tail off basically. This was done a couple times
3 after that, a transfer to hospital tank with 50% brand new clean water, matching kh, ph, gh and temperature. New water mixed with salt at 1tsp per gallon was slowly dripped in. Tank is kept at 75-76 F
4. Indian almond leaf tea was added.
5. Hospital tank was then covered with towels. Fish was listless but was able to stay upright if sitting at the bottom. If swimming was attempted sometimes he would seem out of balance and almost upside down at one point.He hid and spent the next 24 hours or so bottom sitting in the same spot.
6. Fish did not eat for about 36 hours. He is slowly becoming more active and is now accepting food.
7. He receives 30-40 percent water change daily. The plan is to increase salt ratio to 2teaspoon per gallon slowly.
8. Apart from the area that was burned by the chemical, I don't notice chunks of tail rapidly falling off yet from the area that did not contact the neosporin.
and questions ( again! Sorry we keep getting in trouble)
A. What would be the next course of action? i am concerned about him developing opportunistic bacterial infection that would kill him like columnaris. I also just read another post by Carl about a sick Sterbai Cory where he mentioned that once the infection goes systemic it can be hard to cure even if the fish would take medicated food. Since I have heard it said that a wound in the tail can allow for bacteria to get into the bloodstream and cause systemic infection, I am concerned
Should I add medication? What medication? I know spectogram was amazing but I know it could be hard on the fish.
B. If dip and swab is necessary please also advise. This fish generally gets stressed out a lot if handled ( a lot more jumping and very prominent stress stripe if swabs are attempted). I know we have to balance treatment benefit against fish stress but right now I can't seem to decide.
C. I now know indian almond leaves can be used with antibiotics, but can it be used with dyes such as methylene blue, malachite green or acriflavine?
D. Treating fish for shock--- with Turbo we used methylene blue which seems to help a lot. Somehow he appeared to be in pain, still
. He was very still, started listing/losing balance and the black of his eyes seem to get larger during the time he was in shock. I want to find out what other things we could have done.
E. Povidone iodine swab.... ( this is just wondering because it had been recommended by a friend who is a fish vet but I have found a research paper that iodine in the water can be toxic to fish and iodine is an oxidizer) is it safe? I have seen different dilutions being used by different vets ranging from 0.1% to 10%. It seems that the bigger the fish, the higher concentration.
I am attaching the before and after pictures of Turbo the betta, AND THE NEOSPORIN THAT BURNED HIS TAIL. Other fish owner please note. There are so many formulations now and this one almost killed my fish. The inactive ingredient includes sulfuric acid and sodium hydroxide!!!!
F. There is a product for Koi ulcers and wound. It is local analgesic with anti inflammatory. If it is safe in koi, can I assume it is sage on bettas? ( this product is called" Debride Oinment") and some koi owners really like it. I have attached product picture.
thanks again for your help, I look forward to hearing back
PS. Parameters : Ammonia 0 Nitrite 0 Nitrate 0 PH7.2 KH 3.5 GH 7 ( plan to increase to 8 slowly, there is a piece of wonder shell in his hospital tank which is 2gal capacity)
Unfortunately pictures are not that great. The before picture was the one with blue towels under the tank. To better explain the injury, he basically lost 1/4 of his tail from this chemical burn and now after the charred, black parts fell off now the edges are translucent rust color.
My other betta ( Turbo) was developing a mild fin rot. Lesson learned here is next time we will fishless cycle and bettas will be put in 2.5 gallon bowl with twice weekly water change. We prime while cycling but still ends up with mild fin rot.
and here comes the bad part.
I got so much success with neosporin on the halfmoon turquoise that I was trying to just see if swabbing this one and keeping the water super clean will be enough, without using any in tank treatment. So I swab his tail with methylene blue and neosporin cream. The one difference here is this time I used the cream formulation and not the oinment as I did with my other fish.
note that I swabbed this fish's tail before with neosporin oinment and he was fine, apart from being upset with me and hiding for about 20 minutes after he would come back out and swim around just like always.
that neosporin cream burned his tail. Immediately after the swab he became listless and started sinking to the bottom. The area that contacted the cream changed color ( the first 8 hours they turned from dark cobalt blue to this gold/green/ teal then after that black. In 24 hours the burned areas of the tail falls off , and if I pick these bits out of the tank and crush them between my fingers they turn into black crumbly dust just like soot)
So here is what was done 30 minutes after the swab immediately after I noticed something was wrong.
1. Took him out, used wet cotton balls to try to dab as much cream off his tail as possible
2. Methylene blue bath and using straight methylene blue to swab his tail. I just used a syringe and tried to wash his tail off basically. This was done a couple times
3 after that, a transfer to hospital tank with 50% brand new clean water, matching kh, ph, gh and temperature. New water mixed with salt at 1tsp per gallon was slowly dripped in. Tank is kept at 75-76 F
4. Indian almond leaf tea was added.
5. Hospital tank was then covered with towels. Fish was listless but was able to stay upright if sitting at the bottom. If swimming was attempted sometimes he would seem out of balance and almost upside down at one point.He hid and spent the next 24 hours or so bottom sitting in the same spot.
6. Fish did not eat for about 36 hours. He is slowly becoming more active and is now accepting food.
7. He receives 30-40 percent water change daily. The plan is to increase salt ratio to 2teaspoon per gallon slowly.
8. Apart from the area that was burned by the chemical, I don't notice chunks of tail rapidly falling off yet from the area that did not contact the neosporin.
and questions ( again! Sorry we keep getting in trouble)
A. What would be the next course of action? i am concerned about him developing opportunistic bacterial infection that would kill him like columnaris. I also just read another post by Carl about a sick Sterbai Cory where he mentioned that once the infection goes systemic it can be hard to cure even if the fish would take medicated food. Since I have heard it said that a wound in the tail can allow for bacteria to get into the bloodstream and cause systemic infection, I am concerned
Should I add medication? What medication? I know spectogram was amazing but I know it could be hard on the fish.
B. If dip and swab is necessary please also advise. This fish generally gets stressed out a lot if handled ( a lot more jumping and very prominent stress stripe if swabs are attempted). I know we have to balance treatment benefit against fish stress but right now I can't seem to decide.
C. I now know indian almond leaves can be used with antibiotics, but can it be used with dyes such as methylene blue, malachite green or acriflavine?
D. Treating fish for shock--- with Turbo we used methylene blue which seems to help a lot. Somehow he appeared to be in pain, still
. He was very still, started listing/losing balance and the black of his eyes seem to get larger during the time he was in shock. I want to find out what other things we could have done.
E. Povidone iodine swab.... ( this is just wondering because it had been recommended by a friend who is a fish vet but I have found a research paper that iodine in the water can be toxic to fish and iodine is an oxidizer) is it safe? I have seen different dilutions being used by different vets ranging from 0.1% to 10%. It seems that the bigger the fish, the higher concentration.
I am attaching the before and after pictures of Turbo the betta, AND THE NEOSPORIN THAT BURNED HIS TAIL. Other fish owner please note. There are so many formulations now and this one almost killed my fish. The inactive ingredient includes sulfuric acid and sodium hydroxide!!!!
F. There is a product for Koi ulcers and wound. It is local analgesic with anti inflammatory. If it is safe in koi, can I assume it is sage on bettas? ( this product is called" Debride Oinment") and some koi owners really like it. I have attached product picture.
thanks again for your help, I look forward to hearing back
PS. Parameters : Ammonia 0 Nitrite 0 Nitrate 0 PH7.2 KH 3.5 GH 7 ( plan to increase to 8 slowly, there is a piece of wonder shell in his hospital tank which is 2gal capacity)
Unfortunately pictures are not that great. The before picture was the one with blue towels under the tank. To better explain the injury, he basically lost 1/4 of his tail from this chemical burn and now after the charred, black parts fell off now the edges are translucent rust color.
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