A bunch of sick rescue bettas, appreciate any help

[flyingbettas]

Good morning all,

I am new to this forum. We are getting back into fishkeeping after a decade of hiatus and have been doing research to make sure we do it right this time. However, what went wrong was that we ended up "rescuing" a couple of sick fish from a big box store I shall not name. Three of them did well (Thanks in large to multiple articles on AAP and aquarium-pond-answers. We read about water chemistry, medications, how to treat sick fish, etc and there is a lot to take in. 

So three of these rescues are doing well. Others, questionable to downright worrisome. I know from keeping fish in the past that speed can be essential and if I guess wrong about what is going on with them I may run out of time, hence this thread.

A quick note about water parameters:
PH 6.8, ammonia less than 0.25, no nitrite, about 0-5 ppm nitrate, 78-80 F, KH 75, GH 75
The water source- bottled spring water (we just use the one brand that guarantees no fluoride has been added). The water at home is super hard , out of a well so there is a concern about insecticide run-off and other unknown nasties in there. We don't want to use it till we have RO/DI equipment in place and know how to properly remineralize and get the buffers correct.

A quick note about who are sick

Three sick bettas are in hospital tanks, 2.5 gal capacity each with airstones. We have ordered some sponge filter for them, waiting for arrival. Not cycled.
One betta is in his own 5 Gal heated and cycled tank with a small Tetra Whisper filter.


Here comes the questions!

1. We are aware that our GH is on the low side and KH seems to depletes pretty fast (it goes down about 20 ppm in 5 days) although the water is nice and soft. understanding that GH definitely has to be raised, we will be using Replenish or Equillibrium by Seachem. Any recommendation which one would be more appropriate for the Bettas? 

We have also ordered some wondershell and wonder if it could be used along with Equillibrium/Replenish.

KH also has to be raised using Seachem Alkaline buffer. If we are still not too thrilled about using driftwood or leaf along with the Alkaline buffer due to concern of introducing pathogen, would we get a good result by Seachem Acid buffer? 

2. Sick betta #1 (in picture : aqua/turquoise blue with clear finnage. He is a butterfly/half moon) in his own hospital tank without tankmates. He has ragged/fraying tail with bright red blood streaks  We thought it was fin rot at first because the red streaks are not that noticeable so used Oxytetracyclin since that is what we have on hand and this paper says it could work.
cals.arizona.edu/azaqua/ista/ista6/ista6web/presentation/p229.pdf

However the blood streak becomes a lot more red and noticeable and now the fin seem like they are liquefying/disintegrating more starting from the edge going towards the body. Reading an article Carl wrote about Septicemia and how it should not be treated with tetrycycline, I did a 50 % water change immediately and have dosed Jungle Fungus clear because it has Nitrofurazone (again, the we don't have extensive inventory of med on hand because we did not plan on taking them home this soon). 

Fish is still active and eating normally but we don't want him to get any worse. The treatment plan right now is to pick up Furan-2,Kanaplex, and Kordon's Methylene blue from our mom and pop LFS tomorrow. Merbromin and Naladin has been ordered and hopefully will arrive soon. We will give him a bath with Methylene blue, salt and kanaplex and will use Kanaplex + Furan 2 as in tank treatment and will swab with Merbromin. 

does that sound like a good regimen? Anything else we are missing?

3. Sick Betta #2 (in picture, white and gray in a glass soup bowl)  is in his own hospital tank without tankmates. He was in extremely bad shape at the store. He has completely lost color (his body is translucent white with some gray, nothing fungus like or fuzzy, his body does not appear to have any sores or rotting or necrosis). His fin rot down to the point where they were all short like the female's. They don't look like they are "liquefying and disintegrating" like betta #1, just some black around the edge in certain areas. He has no noticeable bloating or spinal deformity or swelling on his body. When we took him home (the store manager let us take him home for free), he was floating sideway in the cup. We have given him two doses of Oxytetracycline although I am not sure if that helps or not. Clean water seems to help immediately. He is swimming around (although still lethargic overall) and is eating (although not with gusto like how bettas should be) We are really not sure if we should try treating with more appropriate antibiotics once we get them tomorrow OR treat for internal parasite OR something else? 


3. Sick betta #3  (pictured. Copper purple/grayish rosetail) is also in his own hospital tank. His fins has some ragged edge and are really curled. He is eating normally, and overall activity on the lethargic side of things. I just found out this morning after having a close look that his eye is bloody and the base of his pelvic fins are red which means septicemia. I am planning on using nitrofurazone and kanaplex combo on him. Any thoughts on what else could be done? (again this guy was treated with oxytetracycline for fin rot because I have that med on hand and I knew his eye were not bloody upon arrival three days ago but now they are.....this is a proof that oxytetracycline is not to be used if the fish has septicemia. 

4. Sick betta #4 (pictured, red, aqua and white crowntail) lives in his cycled heated 5G tank. He had ich on arrival. Temperature is set at 86 degrees and all the spot fell off immediately. I have been doing gravel vac and frequent water change. We are planning on using Paraguard because we know some ich may be living in the substrate. But need to get GH up to at least 100 first, without shocking him. What would be the best way to get the GH up slowly without shocking him so we can treat for ich and bring the temp down? (We know high temp can be breeding ground for bacteria and don't want him to come down with Columnaris). 

We thank you for your help and look forward to what you have to say. We can stock our cabinet full of medicine, but if we don't use the right one fast we are afraid these guys will be too far gone before we figure it out if we figure it out at all. And for any who are concerned--they were placed in a jar/vase/tupperware just for pictures and once that was done they were placed back in their hospital tanks.

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[devonjohnsgard]

Welcome!

Sounds like your on the right track. All but the fish with ich sound to have bacterial issues. I would focus on that and not think about parasites at this time. The wide spread antibotic treatment would be best.

AAP Spectrogram is an easier dosing that the Furan2/Kanaplex, since they have different dosing/water change instructions.

I would use the wonder shell over the Replenish or equal. I wouldn't use both. The wonder shell will constantly release the cations slowly into the water. The two liquids works as well, but there is an idea that the cations could wear out before the next dose, so the shell is an easy effective dose.

I would start with 1/4 doses to slowly bring up the GH.

[flyingbettas]

Thank you so much @devonsjohnsgard
just to clarify

!. So either use Replenish + wondershell OR Equillibrium + wondershell , correct?
2. bringing up GH 1/4 dose at a time...Let's say the bottle has the instruction that says 1 scoop plus 10 gallons of water will bring it up by 2.8 dgh...did you mean I should only try to bring up 0.7-1 DGH per water change




thanks again

[devonjohnsgard]

May 21, 2019 11:40:11 GMT -5 flyingbettas said:

Thank you so much @devonsjohnsgard
just to clarify

!. So either use Replenish + wondershell OR Equillibrium + wondershell , correct?
2. bringing up GH 1/4 dose at a time...Let's say the bottle has the instruction that says 1 scoop plus 10 gallons of water will bring it up by 2.8 dgh...did you mean I should only try to bring up 0.7-1 DGH per water change




thanks again

Just use the wonder shell without the other two. They all basically do the same thing. The wonder shell at the 1/4 recommended dose off the AAP selling page. Not the dosing off the package.

[Carl]

I would agree with Devon's points.
AAP Spectrogram is a better choice ad is more effective than using the separate treatment regimens of Nitrofurazone & Kanamycin

As for AAP Wonder Shells.
Here is a quick reference use suggestion:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/FAQ.html#wonder-shell

The second betta is definitely a very sick boy, and the likelihood of success may not be too good.
AAP Bettamax used in a bath at the "Tonic" level of treatment and at double dose or even higher might be your only chance

Resource:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquatronics.html#betta

This article might be helpful too:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquarium_Disease.html

Regards;
Carl

[flyingbettas]

@devonjohnsregard. Thank you. The shells will arrive at the end of the day Thursday and I will use 1/4dose as directed.

@carl. Thank you so much. I will treat them alll accordingly and report back.
Have a couple more questions here
1. If I use Bettamax bath ( will double dose as directed and ramped up some more if he tolerates it ) on betta#2 can I still use Spectogram as an in tank( not mixed in the bath) treatment concurrently?

2. And can spectogram be mixed in the food or is it best used as in tank treatment in this situation?

3. AAP's wound control is arriving on Thursday evening along with other goodies. I really want to swab betta#1's ( turquoise halfmoon) fins but am concerned I would stress him out or tear his fin. Am I worrying too much? BTW thank you for your advice in one of your articles to cover the hospital tank. It keeps him a lot calmer as earlier he had been chasing his reflection a lot.



4. For betta #3, ( the copper) what is causing his fins to curl? I have been eyeing him from a couple weeks back but really did not want any more fish but had to take him home because he gets worse and worse the longer he stays at the pet store. I know his fin was not that curly a couple weeks ago when he first arrived at the store.

All the links provided have been read ( and will be read a couple more times because there is tons of information there!) I am sorry if I asked about simething that is already answered in the article. There is so much info and I seem to pick up on more info each time I reread.

[flyingbettas]

A quick update--
I am super concerned,...
I gave betta #1 (turquoise butterfly )a break from tetracycline figuring that I will place another order for Spectogram. ( the first order I placed happened prior to asking questions on this forum ) However without any medication from the tank and really warm temperature today (85Fwater because we don't have central A/C and we live in Florida) within a day ammonia spiked to 0.5 and fin rot worsened by a huge amount in just a day!!! Like chunks of fins missing in a day although the bloody streaks are gone and there is a lot more black coloration to the fin. I immediately changed 50% of the water ( too much? Probably. I will reread an article Carl wrote about how much water change is appropriate. It is infuriating that I can't seem to retain all the info, so many details!

in a panic I looked through the sick fish subforum and found that Carl had suggested keeping tank temp at around 75F during fin rot treatment in another thread

So window a/c will be on during the day, no tank lid, that should keep tank temp at 76. Betta # 2 was given a bath with 1/4 teaspoon per quart,, kanaplex and methylene blue. Kanaplex in tank treatment starts today since this is all the mom and pops LFS store have. We hope to have spectogram by the next round. Sorry this could not wait, the huge chunks of fin missing is really scaring me.

Tomorrow AAP's Naladin and AAP wound control plus wondershells will arrive in the mail. Please let me know if you would suggest putting him on Naladin rather than Kanaplex+furan 2


And I realize that what correct antibiotics and low temperature does is slow the bacteria growth but the fish immune system have to do the work growing the fin back. Good nutrition and clean water with proper mineral will be provided and monitored and we hope we will see some improvements.



Other bettas are stable. The really sick white and gray boy is still doing fine although I see more black around the edge of the fin and on the fin ( black streaks). Everyone is put on a round of Kanaplex and fish bath actually and seems to tolerate well. Everybody is eating and seem pretty perrky.

I look forward to any comments you may have as we are trying to make do until we can get a shipment with the recommended med. I will also  continue to update, thanks again everyone!

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[Carl]

Here are my thoughts as to your questions:

(1) Bettamax is not as strong as Spectrogram, and while it can used at double or even quadruple dose in a bath, it can also be used in tank, just not with Spectrogram at the same time in tank (you can however use the Bettmax in the bath & Spectrogram in tank)

(2) Spectrogram is not really meant for feeding (due to Nitrofurazone). A better choice would be Discomed, or a Neomycin/Metronidazole combo

(3)I suggest cradling the Betta in your hand, even if it means getting some Wound Control on yourself (you can also where latex gloves like a Vet would due)

(4) There is no one cause for fin curling. I've seen it as a reaction of many a sick and weak Betta. I would not rule out genetics too.

Carl

[flyingbettas]

Thank you @carl. The antibiotics and cooler temperature is stabilizing the bad fin rot on #1 ( hm butterfly). The dip seems to help immensely. Since this mix( double kanaplex, salt and methylene blue) seems to help I will at this time continue with this bath for all bettas. We found a LFS  carries furan2 yesterday so that will be added to the tank and bath. The only one getting triple dose Bettamax dip will be the super sick betta boy.

We will switch to Spectogram next week.

I will not worry about curling on the copper then, will just concentrate on treating septicemia


We will start merbromin swab this evening....returned home late and the package from AAP was on the porch but we were too tired to try to swab the fish for the first time after a long day. We have high hope it will really help.

Thank you and willmkeep you all posted

[flyingbettas]

Btw sponge filter got put in last night. They all seem to like it. The crockery look funny, but he needs places to go hide in. He is the most nervous boy out of the bunch.

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[flyingbettas]

Good news!

Improvement noted on the copper betta with septicemia. He does not like being caught for the dip but wow that makes me so happy to see the red/ bloody tinge in his fin and eyes starting to fade away.
The very sick white and gray betta boy is getting a little darker. Hope that is a good sign
The turquoise hm is stable. Small improvements but still a long way to go.

More questions ( and perhaps asking for a bit of pep talk;)

1. I seem to have gleaned from the article on AAP website that Naladin AND medicated wondershells can be used for very stubborn case of fin rot too? I am not switching regimen for the first two rounds yet, just asking!

2. In the case of the very sick betta boy and the turquoise halfmoon with a bad fin rot, how long do you think it might take for them to recover 85% ( i dont mind if the tail dont grow back completely. All I care is for them to be happy, healthy fish that do not need antibiotics as their lifeline.

3. I am worried that once 14 days have elapsed with 2 courses of antibiotics administered I may not see much improvement on the turquoise hm. My worst fear is, without antibiotics his fins will go back to rotting again. I cant really treat beyond 14 days per manufacturer and AAP article. Anything I could do so the fish does not backslide after 2 full course?

4. Is this going to get any easier? ( I know, this is for pep talk. I just feel so bad for them now and the workload is high too. I happily brought it upon myself, but I would love to see them healthy and hate that dread When I wake up every morning wondering..will I find a dead fish? Will another chunk of fin go missing?

5. How much flow turnover rate do I get with AAP mini sponge filter? Is one sponge filter good enough for up to 5 gallon tank?

I understand we may not get the best result with the best care due to poor genetics and awful living conditions these fish went through prior to being adopted....I just...need some encouragement


Thank you in advance for your support @carl and @devon

[Carl]

Here are my thoughts

(1) Naladin really does not have any proven effectiveness for fin rot. The MB & MG in a MWS can help, but this is this is not the mains strength of a MWS.
Reference: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumMedication2.html#naladixic

An alternative treatment would be AAP/API Triple Sulfa, AAP PolyGuard. OR if there is a resistant gram positive present, then switching to AAP/API Doxycycline or AAP Myacin (better) would be worth considering

(2)You should see results in 3 -5 days. A second treatment regimen may extend results. However switching to a new treatment regimen might be needed it no results are seen. If results due happen, but you feel a 3rd treatment regimen is needed, switching to Triple Sulfa might be a safe alternative.
Full healing often does not happen, especially if the loss of fins extends into cartilage

Resources:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquatronics.html
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumPharmaceuticalsAPI.html

(3) See previous answers

(4)I guess this is rather subjective, and since I have treated so many fish over the years, I would say yes, but I think I cannot say this may be the same for you. Hopefully no more chunks will dissapear.

(5)With a decent air pump, you should get 100+ gph flow

Carl

[devonjohnsgard]

I think Carl covered the answer pretty well.

As for getting easier, I would say yes. At some point, the fish will get better or stop making progress. Either way, treatments will stop. I wouldn't keep treating long term.

Great work this far.

[flyingbettas]

@devon yeah, I suppose some fish may not make it. Heck, not all of us makes it lol and eventually we all die. It is a reality that I am still struggling to accept.

@carl I gave them all a day of break before the second round of treatment( no bath, no dip, no in tank treatment). HM turquoise fin rot deteriorate ( more blood on the tip of the fin and one hole appears in his already torn tail)due to this one day break. All week last week, Kanaplex/nitrofurazone and merbromin swab plus bath in methyblu seems to be able to halt the progression ( no deterioration at all for that week) but does not seem to produce any improvement.

I rechecked water chemistry. Kh-3 gh -7 with wondershell in the tank. Ph 7.4, ammonia below 0.25. 0 nitrate and nitrite. 75-76F

1. Would you say a treatment regimen that halt the progression will eventually produce improvement if continued or increasing dosage? ( essentially I am wondering if we can determine that this is a gram negative infection now due to this observation, therefore saving us the time and the possible downhill slide if switching to gram positive medication such as Myacin if it is not appropriate?)

2. Is it possible, during this second round, to increase the dosage of any med ? ( I believe you said somewhere that spectogram can be used at double dose safely?)

3. Just want to confirm-- can I combine medicated wonder shell with spectogram, and would this be appropriate at this point?

4 should I try potassium permanganate swab? Is it stronger than merbromin swab?

5 can indian almond leaves be combined with spectogram AND medicated wonder shell, and
Can indian almond leave be conbined with triple sulfa?
And can triple sulfa be combined with medicated wonder shell?

6. I spoke with two breeders. One said he just uses indian almond leaves and 1 tbsp per gallon salt added gradually with daily 25% water change, the other one said indian almond leaves, salt, and some melafix. Even when the rot goes all the way down to their body. They said it work. I have a hard time believing, but since two of them said so and they were not trying to sell me anything I wonder how or if this could be true. I am considering this once we go past three weeks mark and it becomes unsafe to constantly medicating with these strong meds. Your thoughts?

7 can I dab hunan neosporin straight on his fins?

------

Good news first btw.. the very sick betta boy is better! Fins are growing back!!! He is getting more color and has been gobbling up food and has been active.
Everyone is eating their vegetables ( spirulina I got from a friend of a friend who is a breeder, some deshelled peas, some veggie pellets mixed in, trying to achieve that 280 points energy recommendation).


Not so good news... the copper that has septicemia does not actually respond to kanaplex and nitrofurazone. I am sorry I gave you guys false hope.. I thought the red was fading but it seems it has been there all along. So

6. Should I try Naladin? Myacin? Something else? He is still acting normal and eating.
7. Can I mix myacin with food

Last , for the very sick betta boy who is not so sick any more
8. He is on the first day if his second round of Kanaplex+furan and bath. When should I discontinue med and bath?



Thanks As always. This would suck a lot more without you guys.

[Carl]

A second round would definitely be a good idea since the fish has responded, even if there is little healing at this point (the healing is often very much delayed after stopping the infection; think of a person that say got a bad wound and an infection in this wound, the wound is going to heal long after the infection is beat back).

Yes Spectrogram at 1.5 to double dose, but do not add any more MWS (or use at half dose)

Indian Almond leaves have been proven to help with Aeromonas (& likely help with other gram negative infections), so their use is a definitely a good idea and would not interfere at all with current medication.
BettaSpa is one way to utilize IAL

I would stick with Merbromin, as Potassium Permanganate is a strong oxidizer, which is great for a severe infection, but it also burns tissue, thus further slowing healing

AAP Myacin might be worth trying for a round of treatment and it can be mixed with food

Finally, on the last Betta, after 2nd round is completed, definitely discontinue ALL treatments. At most add AAP Res-Q

Carl

[flyingbettas]

News!!!!!!!

1.The HM turquoise's Tail growing back! That new hole disappeared within a day!


So after a quick reread on combining treatments, I tried what Carl called " everything but the kitchen sink" combo. I ended up doing one dose of kanaplex+nitrofurazone plus one dose of medicated wonder shell. ( got that and betta max from a friend who swears by them and definitely will be ordering MWS myself probably tonight as I want to make sure I order everything I need in one box, shipping will be cheaper this way)


On top of that I double the salt dosage in the bath and in the tank ( tank now at the rate of 1teaspoon per gallon salt, and bath has 1/2 teaspoon salt in a quart)
Swabbling with merbromin, then after that human neosporin ( tips from a goldfish afficionado)


It is working!!!!!!

Carl, all that chemical in the water makes it a little worrisome, but I trust that this is a good regimen and trust that what you recommend will not hurt him long term.
Any water parameter I have to really keep an eye on ( you said with any strong treatment more monitoring of parameters may be required.


How long can he stay on this regimen? Any chance i can do three rounds total on this, or is it necessary to do triple sulfa on the third round to give his organs a break from these chemicals?

2. Myacin will be ordered and will be mixed with food and fed to the copper

3 the not so sick any more betta boy will complete his second round then no more med. Will think about using res-q , probably will try that after he get at least a weeklong break

4 last question, if you still see black on the tip of the rays in the fins,but the fins are growing back, is it normal? I thought healthy tissue is not supposed to be black? ( Carl, you have an explanation somewhere on your fin rot page but I just really want to ask you , just to be sure)


Order coming tonight or tomorrow morning.
Thank you!!!

[Carl]

last question, if you still see black on the tip of the rays in the fins,but the fins are growing back, is it normal? I thought healthy tissue is not supposed to be black? ( Carl, you have an explanation somewhere on your fin rot page but I just really want to ask you , just to be sure)

Yes this is normal.

One more thought, I too have used human Neosporin, with mixed results. What is noteworthy is that being an oil based product, it does not readily adhere to the slime coat of fish unless rubbed in which can do more harm than good. However on raw/exposed tissue, it is perfectly safe to use

Carl

[flyingbettas]

Carl,

Thank you! I will be sure to dab or roll the Q-Tip, definitely no rubbing. It may help with the dead exposed tissue which is fine by me.

I am also considering using shieldex on the hm turquoise ( will definitely be ordering it, sounds like a good product based on ingredients, I don't think I want to put aldehyde compound in the water too much and Seachem's stresscoat has aldehyde, not too excited about that)


If I use shieldex on him, should I paint it on at double concentration, paint it on straight undiluted, or just dilute in tank exactly per instruction on the box?
Or should I just skip for now?


Thanks again for being around )

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[Carl]

If using Shieldex for healing purposes, I prefer to squirt it directly on the fish. With Bettas I simply cradle them in the palm of my hand just above the water of the aquarium and squirt some Shieldex (or Res-Q) directly on the fish.

As per aldehydes, d not be too concerned here, these are natural organic compounds fro reduction.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aldehyde

Carl

[flyingbettas]

Dear Carl ( and Devon, too)

Our order arrived from AAP. Everybody loves Zoomed Spirulina flakes!!!

I am going to be mixing Myacin in food for the copper betta.( His name is Saturn)

1. What would be the best way to get medication mixed into food ( use Seachem Focus? Or do we need to do this food mix per EJ Noga's book ( please see attachment)

2. For a medium large betta who eats about 7 pellets( omega one betta buffed sized pellets) a day, what kind of food:medicine ratio do we use?

3. What I gleaned from reading EJ Noga's " fish disease, diagnosis and treatment) is that most medicine sold over the counter for pet fish, when used per instruction, does not acheive therapeutic concentration. ( please see attachment) The only company so far that seems to instruct customers to dose appropriately / in line with academic papers is Aquatronics. What is your opinion on this? Does it mean, for those that use fish med from well known companies such as S**c*** and A*I , their fish got better because of their own immune system??? I know it might be a touchy subject because you are their suppllier and they make some good products too, please do let me know what your thoughts are if you are comfortable sharing.

4 in reference to question #3, does it mean the course of antibiotics ( kanaplex and furan) we gave to the copper failed because the dose is too low?

5 what do you do if fish that has hemorrhagic septicemia does not respond to spectogram , and not to Myacin either? He is still eating and acting normal but I am wondering what kind of damage might be going on that we can't see. We are considering taking him to an aquatic vet at university of Florida, but since bettas are so small bloodwork can't be done ( per university of Florida Aquatic veterinary department AND EJ Noga's textbook.

6 have you seen a fish get beter on their own over a couple months when all therapies fail?

7 you mentioned in one of your articled that you have dosed erythromycin along with kanaplex successfully under careful observation. Could you elaborate what you were observing? ( signs of for adverse reaction to the combined med? Ammonia level?) would dosing the two together and making sure this time kanaplex is dose at therapeutic dosage be a good option for this fish right now?

Thank you all, I know those are heavy duty long question. I do trust you guys and thanks again for publishing your articles on the web. They are helpful and as I said earlier, I could not do without them.

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