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Post by shakeslady on Jan 1, 2019 19:22:36 GMT -5
I am treating my betta, Kabuki, for suspected slow growing columnaris. It started with a couple of small spots on his pectoral fins, which I thought were an injury so I upped his water changes. They were shrinking for awhile, then all of a sudden starting getting worse and grayish white discolored patches started appearing on his body near the pectoral fins, especially on the left side. I initially treated with Paraguard since I didn't know what I was dealing with, but it didn't have any effect and the patches started spreading. He became very lethargic and spent most of his time hanging out at the bottom of the tank, or hiding in his log. Before I found the AAP protocol, I started with combo Jungle Fungus Clear (8 days) and Kanaplex (6 days), which ended on Sunday morning. After reading the AAP article, I added a Wonder Shell to his tank and started him on methylene blue/aquarium salt baths once a day on Thursday. It's been a roller coaster, but he seems to be doing a bit better. He's not hiding as much and is more active (though not as active as he would normally be). His appetite has been good throughout. After stopping the antibiotics on Sunday and adding the carbon back to the filter to clear out the residual meds, yesterday he was looking much worse -- the discolored patches were fluffy (not hair like) and his left eye was cloudy. I didn't want to do another round of antibiotics without a break, so I upped his MB baths to twice a day yesterday since he seems to feel/act much better afterward. His body was looking better this morning, but his eye is still cloudy and the discolored patches were much whiter this evening. (I don't know if the cloudiness is related to the infection, or if I injured him with my clumsy netting attempts. I fashioned a scoop out of a clean container with holes poked in it and was able to capture him much more easily today.) I purchased some Wound Control and would like to use that on his body, but I'm a newbie and when I tried treating him in a net he was flopping around so much I was afraid I would hurt him and make things worse. Can Wound Control be used as a bath/dip? If so, how many drops per gallon and for how long? Can it be combined with methylene blue and/or aquarium salt? How long is it safe to continue the methylene blue baths? I purchased some of your Spectogram. How long should I wait before starting a second round of antibiotics? Do I add them only to the baths or also to the tank? (I'd prefer only the baths since there has been a blip in the tank cycle since I started treating him - 0.5 ammonia at its highest, which I'm controlling with water changes every other day and daily doses of Prime.) Any advice would be appreciated. Sorry for the short novel, but I've gotten really attached to the little guy and would hate to lose him so soon (I've had him 4 months). Specs: He is in a heated, filtered 3 gallon tank. It had been cycled for 3 months until the recent blip. Parameters as of a few minutes ago were 0.25 ammonia, 0 nitrite, 5-10 nitrate, ph 7.4. Not sure how accurate my test strips are but it looks like GH is between 150 and 300, and KH is 120-180. I finally managed to get some halfway decent photos, though still not great. The grayish white band you see has gotten worse in the last day or so, but some other spots have gotten better. The white patches look much less pronounced now that he's out of his evening bath (perhaps dyed by the MB?). I'm very confused by all this.
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Post by Carl on Jan 1, 2019 20:59:28 GMT -5
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Post by shakeslady on Jan 1, 2019 22:47:41 GMT -5
Thanks so much. I will start this tomorrow morning. Should I apply the Wound Control before or after his MB bath?
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Post by shakeslady on Jan 2, 2019 9:47:17 GMT -5
Mission (sort of) accomplished. I did my best with the Wound Control swab. Kabuki was pretty squirmy and his coloration makes the patches hard to see except in a certain light, but I did the best I could. The amount of water I use for his baths is very small - just a few cups. I didn't know how to measure the Spectrogram accurately, so I just used tweezers and put in the tiniest pinch. It did not dissolve completely - is that OK?
Couple of more questions -- I'm using a salt concentration of 1 tsp/gallon for the baths. Is that correct? Also, should I be using aquarium salt in his tank as well? If so, what concentration? I have Seachem Stress Guard on hand. Would that be a helpful addition to his tank? I just realized that I neglected to lower the temperature in his tank, so I will lower it gradually, 1 degree at a time over the next day or two, until we get to 75.
He's holding his own, though for the first time he didn't have much of an appetite this morning (I'll see if I can tempt him with some frozen bloodworms later). The discolored patches look better this morning, though, and he's not hiding. He's hanging out on his hammock now after spending half an hour patrolling his tank to be sure nothing had changed during his spa treatment.
Thanks again for your help. Sorry I'm so full of questions, but I want to do the best I can for him.
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Post by Carl on Jan 2, 2019 10:06:39 GMT -5
Wound Control is best applied prior to the bath. Any residual will get into the bath which is OK. One teaspoon per gallon in the bath is a good amount. More might be more helpful, but could also cause too much stress, so this is a good amount to start with. StressGuard would be good to use, but not with Medicated Wonder Shell (regular Wonder Shell is OK) Carl
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Jan 2, 2019 15:35:28 GMT -5
Welcome! looks like Carl has this one covered!
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Post by kagome on Jan 2, 2019 19:29:51 GMT -5
I'm sorry your fish is sick. That's always such a bummer. You're taking really good care of him! You asked about putting salt in his regular tank. Carl's article recommends 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons of water for sick fish. That would break down to 1.8 teaspoons for your 3 gallon tank. But, substrate and decor take up some room, usually about 20%. So that would come to 1.08 teaspoons for your tank. I'd just go with one teaspoon of aquarium salt. Dissolve it in some water when you do a water change and pour that into the tank. That way, if he gets curious about something being added to the tank, he doesn't come into direct contact with the salt and burn himself. www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2008/03/salt-in-freshwater-aquariums.html
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Post by shakeslady on Jan 3, 2019 15:19:15 GMT -5
Thanks, everyone. Kabuki is looking a bit better, but not acting well at all. He stopped eating yesterday and spends most of the day hiding in his log. His color still looks good, though, and he isn't clamping his fins. He swims easily on the rare occasions he comes out of his log. He doesn't seem to have any struggle breathing. I'm in the process of lowering the temp in his tank, so I'm hoping some of the lethargy/lack of appetite is due to the cooler water.
I think the Wound Control Swabs are stressing him out a lot, so I'll probably do them only once a day, and keep up with the twice a day salt/meth blue/spectrogram baths. I'll also add a teaspoon of dissolved salt to his main tank.
If it seems like the baths continue to stress him out, I'm guessing that adding spectrogram to his main tank would be the only viable alternative. I'd like to avoid that, if possible, since the previous round of in tank meds may have caused a blip in the cycle (I don't know what else it could be) but I suppose I could move him to his old 1 gallon and use it as a hospital tank. Not sure how I'd go about measuring the meds for so small a tank and keeping the parameters in line while medicating, though. I'm still reading ammonia between 0.25 and 0.5 in his main tank, which I'm controlling with Prime between water changes. Nitrites are still 0 and nitrates are 5-10. I'm dipping him in a container with a bit of tank water after his baths to try to avoid getting meth blue in the tank, but it's possible a bit is creeping in and affecting the cycle as well.
Are there specific signs of improvement I should be looking for? I appreciate the hand holding for an overwrought newbie fish mom.
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Post by Carl on Jan 4, 2019 9:59:13 GMT -5
If the fish is stressed (as well as you) baths and swabs once per day is really just about as effective as twice per day. The baths have the advantage of working better for internal infection you cannot readily see. The Wound control has the advantage of destroying visible infection such as what your picture shows. Lack of appetite is definitely a concern, so trying to feed anything the fish will eat should be considered (even if not the best food for long term health). Brine Shrimp & Plankton are often foods many fish including Bettas will more readily accept. The AAP/Gamma NutraShots also another more readily accepted fish food designed for such purposes. Carl
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Post by shakeslady on Jan 4, 2019 10:02:17 GMT -5
Update: Kabuki showed a slight interest in eating this morning and got down part of one garlic soaked pellet (he turned his nose up at the second). It's not much, but at least it's something. The little guy is still fighting, so I'll keep fighting, too. I have some frozen blood worms and will try to tempt him with those. If I have a chance to get out this afternoon, I'll see if I can locate brine shrimp and/or plankton locally.
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Post by kagome on Jan 4, 2019 15:19:54 GMT -5
I'm sorry the poor little guy is still sick. Columnaris is rough. I've lost some fish to it myself. Usually, the first signs of improvement are that it stops spreading. Then the bleached out patches on the body start to recede. Definitely, tempt him with any food that you can. I've found that the ones that completely stop eating don't make it. And don't beat yourself up about this. You're doing a really good job of trying to fix him up. Unfortunately, Bettas can be inbred, genetically weak and are housed under really stressful conditions in shipping and at the pet stores. Also, breeders tend to dump older fish that are past their breeding prime. So sometimes you pick one up and it's much older than you think. I'm not saying people shouldn't own Bettas, I truly love these guys. Or that you shouldn't do your best to fix up Kabuki. But at the same time, don't ravage yourself or give up on the hobby because he got sick. You've obviously got a good heart and are a responsible pet owner. Indian almond leaf might be a good addition to the main tank. It has anti-inflammatory and other medicinal properties. It also helps mimic the natural conditions of Bettas, who are blackwater environment fish. If you can't find any locally, Carl sells the extract.
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Post by shakeslady on Jan 4, 2019 19:47:29 GMT -5
Thanks. I had read that a lot of bettas have a genetic weakness when it comes to columnaris, so I'm prepared for the worst but hoping for the best.
The patches don't seem to be spreading anymore, but I haven't noticed them receding much. It's hard to get a good look at him because he's been spending most of his time in his log. He did show some interest in food this evening (blood worms and brine shrimp), though I think he just sniffed around. Not sure how much, if anything, he actually ate, but interest was an improvement. I'll give that area of his tank a good vacuuming tomorrow when I change his water to suck up what he didn't eat. I'm hoping he'll decide to do some snacking overnight. He's also been out of his log for the last 5-10 minutes swimming around, which I haven't seen him do for a few days, so I think he's starting to feel better. We're on day 3 of the swabs, baths and Spectrogram. I also added some Oregon Grape Root starting last evening. It doesn't sound like it could do any harm and it might help. Fingers crossed.
(I have a couple of the mini Indian almond leaves in his tank already.)
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Post by shakeslady on Jan 5, 2019 10:36:12 GMT -5
Celebrating small improvements - Kabuki ate a frozen blood worm this morning when I offered it to him. I vacuumed up less food than I put in last night, so I'm hoping he did little munching overnight as well. He hasn't been very active and I lowered the temp in his tank, so he probably needs less food than normal. He also seems more alert and curious this morning and isn't hiding constantly (though still most of the time). Some of the patches look like they might be a bit smaller, but the streak on his left side that you can see in the pictures is still pretty pronounced (though maybe slightly better).
Today is day 4 of treatment with Spectrogram. I'll obviously continue through the full six days, but if I'm not seeing major improvement I'm hoping it's OK to continue through another round immediately (instructions say to wait 3 days on the package, but the website instructions are less clear about timing). I did a full round previously with Fungus Clear/Kanaplex and he improved a great deal, but took a nosedive when I gave him the three day break. I don't want to risk that happening again. I know there are risks with continuing the medication, but I'm pretty sure he will be a goner anyway if I don't. Dilemma . . . any thoughts?
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Post by Carl on Jan 5, 2019 11:42:17 GMT -5
A forth treatment with AAP Spectrogram would be OK As well, if it does not stress you or especially your Betta too much, continued daily application of AAP Wound Control might further help shrink observable patches of infection. This is a very good point by Kagome. The unfortunate facts are if this is a genetically weak, previously poorly cared for, or older Betta, you are fighting an uphill battle here Carl
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Post by shakeslady on Jan 5, 2019 18:44:05 GMT -5
Well, the swabs aren't stressing me out as much now -- not sure about the fish. :-) But I'm only doing them once a day now followed by a meth blue/salt/spectrogram bath. In the evening he just gets the bath with no swab. His color is still good and he's not showing any stress strips, so I guess that's a positive sign that he's not too stressed.
When you say a fourth treatment of Spectrogram would be OK, do you mean a fourth dose, or another whole course of treatment? I know this is an uphill battle, but I'm willing to keep fighting for awhile. I know it's not quite the same situation, but when my elderly cats reached the end, I knew when it was time to let them go. Hoping I'll have the same intuition this time.
It's ironic that I had bettas years ago and literally did everything wrong - small, uncycled, unheated, unfiltered tank. Didn't do much more than feed them and change the water once a week -- and they both lived 2 years or so after I got them. This time I'm trying to do it right and he got sick in a few months anyway. I know it's not my fault, that's just how the ball rolls sometimes, but it's still a little hard to take.
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Post by Carl on Jan 7, 2019 10:22:15 GMT -5
Well, the swabs aren't stressing me out as much now -- not sure about the fish. :-) But I'm only doing them once a day now followed by a meth blue/salt/spectrogram bath. In the evening he just gets the bath with no swab. His color is still good and he's not showing any stress strips, so I guess that's a positive sign that he's not too stressed. Great! If you suspect any stress from the bath, this too can be just once per day and still be 80% as effective One more dose of Spectrogram, not an entire regimen I think this makes Kagome's point, as by nature, these are very resilient fish Carl
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Post by shakeslady on Jan 7, 2019 10:54:10 GMT -5
My intuition told me to switch both the baths and the swabs to 1x a day, so I started that yesterday.
Kabuki is looking a bit better and acting a lot better today - he came out of his log several times last evening (though only for 15-30 seconds to do a quick patrol around his tank and grab a breath at the surface). He wasn't hiding in his log when I came in to check on him this morning and he swam up to the front of the tank to meet me. He hasn't done that in several days. I'm pretty sure he also ate a few blood worms this morning - I left them in front of his log then left the room for awhile so he could eat without the stress of thinking I was going to snag him for another bath. I'm pretty sure there were fewer when I came back an hour later (vacuumed up the remainder with his water change). And he didn't immediately dash for his log as soon as he came out of his bath. He still has a ways to go before he's back to his normal behavior, but these are hopeful signs.
I'm on day 6 of Spectrogram today and will do one more two day dose. After that, I'll keep up with the baths/swabs and hopefully that will continue the improvement and keep him from a relapse. After I stop the Spectrogram, is there anything milder I can use to help with any lingering bacteria (perhaps Paraguard)?
You have truly been a godsend. I so appreciate all your help and will order my supplies from AAP from now on, unless it's an emergency.
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Post by Carl on Jan 8, 2019 9:41:24 GMT -5
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Post by kagome on Jan 9, 2019 10:39:24 GMT -5
I hope he keeps improving!
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Post by shakeslady on Jan 10, 2019 15:17:24 GMT -5
Thanks for your well wishes. I stopped all the treatments after yesterday morning's bath, and he's holding his own. He's still pretty lethargic and hangs out at the bottom of the tank most of the time, but the discolored patches are looking quite a bit better and the eye cloudiness has cleared a bit. He showed some interest in his pellets yesterday, but couldn't seem to get them in his mouth (even though I had soaked them) and gave up after a half-hearted try. Today I got him to eat one large blood worm before he decided he'd had enough. It's not much, but it's something.
I'm slowly raising the tank temperature back to his comfort zone. Hopefully he'll be more active/hungry in warmer water. I'll give it another day or two with just the Stress Guard and hopefully see some more improvement.
Carl - previously you said not to use Stress Guard with the medicated Wonder Shell. How long should I wait after using Stress Guard before it's safe to put in the medicated shell? Should I use some carbon in the filter in between?
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