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Post by murdock6701 on Nov 17, 2008 19:04:41 GMT -5
am coming to the conclusion that after a few more days of treatment that I may have to euthanize the blue ram - he is not respoding to anything and I have now spent over $70 trying to keep them and medicate the only survivor of 4, then the 2 replacements....any suggestions?
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Post by Carl on Nov 17, 2008 19:49:36 GMT -5
My thoughts are to not medicate the tank further, but consider continuing with MB/Salt Baths.
I also just sent you some Usnea N/C (which admittedly is experimental), but can be effective in baths and tank treatments for problems that your Blue Ram is displaying (I have a Dwarf Gourami the I got on my last LA trip with similar sypmtoms that I am treating via baths and multiple feedings)
Carl
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Post by murdock6701 on Nov 17, 2008 20:05:28 GMT -5
Carl, you did not have to do that! not that I don't appreciate it - thank you - already did a 25% water change tonight and remedicated.....
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Post by goldenpuon on Nov 17, 2008 20:39:03 GMT -5
I wish I could help Murdock. Unfortunately, I know little about this. My only suggestion is maybe to cover the tank partially with a towel. It always calms my goldfish down but I'm not sure about other fish. I don't think it can hurt. Sorry I do not have anything better to add.
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Post by jonv on Nov 17, 2008 21:28:52 GMT -5
I got the pm John, sorry I've been simulator/role playing/ fantasy sports goofing off lately and cleaning up the tanks.
You know, this is too unusual I think to be any one single thing. You've run enough treatments, so I think it's got to be one of two things.
1. You need to run the meds a little longer to take effect? I really can't say much about this because medication and treating are not the science area's I was very adept in like Carl and Bill are. I can say from a very limited prespective though, using some analytical chemistry point of view, if you have a fish that say is in advanced stages of some affliction, it might be a case of where you need to alter the concentration levels to see any effects, OR it might be some sort of infection that is over a very large area, and it's going to take longer then normal before you see progress. Like say I mix Hydrocloric acid onto some crushed bone meal, how much acid over how much material directly impacts the time period to see visable results. I'm just using this example actually because I saw this one on the History Channel a few days ago talking about how they make Gelatin. They examine the reaction rates per surface area of crushed bone, to figure the ideal concentrations needed to maximize the speed at which the bone is reduced to a usable material. I don't know this for sure, just taking a poke in the dark, MAYBE it's just a case of too big of an area for the med to effectively treat in a short period of time?
2. You'd mentioned before, and this is what I'm more leaning towards I feel is the issue, that your Rams appeared to be a little deformed. Too much inbreeding causing some defects. You just might have one really screwed up genetic fish here John. Again, I'm not very versed in the biology aspects of science, but I'm pretty sure that you start mixing up genes and crossing them in a gene pool too many times, you could get a super mutant that has great features, but you're just as likely to get a very f'd up fish that just isn't going to make it. I think this is likely to be your case, only I wouldn't know how to explain how this Ram made it this far. However, again genetically speaking, something like Diabetes which I am pretty sure is also genetically linked, might show up in your teens, or it might show up at mid life.
I wish I could narrow this down further but I can't John. I do have one of those Bythobates I showed you all that has part of it's jaw bone sticking out and looks very much like a tumor. Initially I considered euthanizing it, just to try to keep a better gene pool, but then I felt well I could always isloate it down the road too. You know, turns out, these few months I've had this species, the deformed one is the one that's actually growing the fastest and biggest. Go figure.
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Post by kagome on Nov 18, 2008 0:13:30 GMT -5
I would like to preface this by saying that this is just my personal opinion and I'm not trying to judge in any way or make you feel bad. If it were my fish I think that I would not euthanize at this point. My reason for saying this is that you mentioned that the ram is still swimming around and eating well. It's been my experience that truly doomed fish don't act that way at all. I am an ardent advocate of euthanasia when an animal is overtly suffering and has no chance of making a meaningful recovery or of having a decent quality of life. However, it seems like perhaps this guy could turn the corner and start doing better and the poor thing has already lived through so much that it seems like he deserves more of a shot. I know you are also worried about your other fish, so perhaps isolate him? If he was isolated from the tetras you could then do full strength medication.
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Post by murdock6701 on Nov 19, 2008 20:47:17 GMT -5
well, tonight I did a major move in trying to save my german blue ram - after a 40 minute bath in mb/salt + the concoction of usnea that Carl so kindly sent me. I put him in his own little 1.6 gallon tank w/ an undergravel filter and a light so he'll be easier to catch to administer more treatments - it is a sterile tank, meaning void of plants or decor - I filled it with 3/4 original tank water and 1/4 regular water - waited 1/2 an hour to check parameters - had a baby platy in there prior so there is nitrifying and active bacteria - baby blue platy seems happy so far and is swimming freely in the 20 gallon SA - it was the only place I could put her - so far, she hasn't been hassled or eaten! that was a major concern, but when you're backed in a corner, sometimes you don't have much choice - the large glob on the lower fin of the ram is gone although he still has it on his side and the top of his tail - for lack of a camera, I am trying to be as descriptive as possible - this is the most I have seen him since I got him! he doesn't seem overly happy to be alone and is actively swimming around - keeping my fingers crossed! thank you all for your suggestions and support - am hoping this last ditch effort works!
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Post by brenda on Nov 19, 2008 21:18:32 GMT -5
I'm sorry you're still having problems John...Goodluck and I hope it turns out ok for you. I give you credit for trying so hard for one little fish...There are a lot of people out there who wouldn't do what you have done. I still think this was a bad batch of fish and nothing you did wrong.
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Post by murdock6701 on Nov 19, 2008 21:26:26 GMT -5
I agree - a few days ago I was ready to euthanize him for his and my own good, but I have a lot of good friends here who have been very supportive and I couldn't let my ram or you guys down without trying 1 last time! this one little fish could have been one little horse, or kitten or whatever - as keepers we need to try our best
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Post by murdock6701 on Nov 19, 2008 21:35:19 GMT -5
sorry to ramble again, but I finally made him a little cave - he was freaking out w/ no cover - he has settled down now.....
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Post by Carl on Nov 19, 2008 21:53:50 GMT -5
Once again good luck and I hope all your efforts pay off.
Even if he does not, you gotta admit that you did everything humanly possible to save this guy, something many aquarists would not be bothered with (although this group has many who care about their fish)
Carl
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Post by jonv on Nov 19, 2008 23:44:37 GMT -5
I had a couple calls in with Carl and Bill. Carl experienced a slightly out of the normal experience with the species I think you should try, and Bill hasn't kept them but seems to agree with my view point. Not to say something bad about Carl, because clearly, as I've mentioned to you before, you always can have aggressive fish even in peaceful types, along with certain factors can trigger the most mildest of fish to become aggressive too.
All that in mind John, take a look at and consider if you want a new cichild, this is a South American like the Ram, might be a small bit big for a 20 but that would be a couple years down the road, mild by temperment on average, and I think has a very nice look to them. Look up Aquedins Pulcher, aka the Blue Acara. I have kept these before but they didn't thrive being with Africans, though they were bigger then most. In your tank with the Rams I think this would be something good for you. Just let me know what you think of this species. I can obtain these fairly easy.
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Post by Carl on Nov 20, 2008 10:26:24 GMT -5
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Post by murdock6701 on Nov 20, 2008 10:35:38 GMT -5
thanks - I've also read about them, they get up to 8" though.....kinda big for my tanks - appreciate your suggestions though, don't mean to sound ungrateful....I like the little guys - ram seems better today - got up early before work and did his bath think - no return growth on his fin and "maybe" some receedingof the goop on his side - little blue platy still alive too - so far, so good!
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Post by jonv on Nov 20, 2008 12:21:32 GMT -5
Yeah Severums too, that's not a bad choice at all in terms of compatiblity there. I think though you'd want to stick with a South American really, and in this case, I'd go back to what I was saying before, if size is the factor to stick with, and nothing wrong with that, then I'd look over the other Apisto's. Maybe something like a Cuckatoo is in order, and there's quite a few other species in that group that have some wonderous colors.
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Post by murdock6701 on Nov 20, 2008 14:09:53 GMT -5
I agree, but not available now nor around here.....woild have to wait til spring - it's snowing and zero w/ the wind chill right now...heat packs or styrofoam couldn't persuade mt to take the risk of shipping in this weather, especially if there was no one home to sign for it....thanks my friend, I really like the dwarfs best
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Post by murdock6701 on Nov 20, 2008 21:59:51 GMT -5
ram is looking a little better today, not moving around as much and haven't seen him eat much tonight - had his voodoo bath this morning and tonight so we'll see - kinda just hanging low in his cave....
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Post by kagome on Nov 21, 2008 0:03:15 GMT -5
I am so totally pulling for you and your little fish! I really hope this new medicine works for you!
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Post by murdock6701 on Nov 21, 2008 9:58:31 GMT -5
thanks for your support - I'm hoping he makes it too but haven't seen him eat at all - he never was one to attck food from the start....
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Post by kagome on Nov 21, 2008 13:51:44 GMT -5
I've read that sometimes you have to tempt them with extra tasty food like frozen mixes and that sort of thing. Unfortunately, I think the rams can be very sensitive to change and go off their feed.
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