Betta tail rot getting worse after triple sulfa

[lefty]

Hi...
my daughter’s betta has fin rot and we are struggling to see improvement. In fact it’s gotten worse after 4 days of triple sulfa used as directed. Now the tips of his caudal fins are turning red and anal fins are noticeably receding rapidly.

Tank info:
5 gal cycled housed with 3 Pygmy Cory cats
Silk/ soft plastic decor
78 degrees preset heater
Whisper filter
Prime conditioner

Food-
new life spectrum, x3 1mm Pellets daily
Cory’s get 1 API small sinking food at night every other day or two

Parameters:
0ppm ammonia & nitrites (.25 ammonia today on last day antibiotics)
5ppm nitrates
7.6 ph

Background:
When we got the Cory cats a month ago, some over feeding occurred due to bad advice & limited experience on our part and ammonia spiked. Also, they went directly in, no quarantine. They don’t appear to be infected & seem to get along fine with Betta.

Tail rot on betta has been going on for 2 weeks and is quite progressive. Before the triple sulfa treatment we performed 50% water changes daily with gravel vacuum and extra prime along with seachem stability.

During triple sulfa we removed carbon from bio-bag and have done one 25% water change as directed on packaging.

What do you suggest We do next? Methalyne baths or AQ salt? More antibiotics? I’ll pick up some medicated miracle shells but am concerned the bacteria has become internal and is possibly septicemia? The .25 ammonia reading makes me think I need to do an immediate water change forgoing the treated water? Is this from healthy bacteria dying off from antibiotics?

Here’s where i’m At...
Why have Betta’s fin tips turned red from at first looking white then to black after receiving triple sulfa? Do I add more carbon back into the existing bio-bag or get a brand new filter cartridge thus starting from scratch and if that’s the case, sterlize the rest of the tank? Do I start back with aggressive water changes? We prefer to keep the fish together if possible depending on next course of action but will separate just don’t have another aquarium right now.

Also, going away for 5 days in one weeks time and everything aside from feeding might be too much for fish sitter.

Thank you for reading.
Shelley

[Carl]

Hi Shelly and welcome to Everything Aquatic!

Knowing all water parameters, including GH and KH would be very helpful as per history and knowing if mineral Cations are present.
Please read this relatively short article as to why:
www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2016/09/how-to-treat-sick-fish.html

Is it also possible that some fish might be nipping?

I would move the Betta to another aquarium that has a seeded ATI/AAP Sponge filter IF this is possible

A daily Medicated Fish bath with MethyBlue, sodium chloride, & Epsom salt would also be suggested

Reference:
www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2009/07/fish-baths.html

While Triple Sulfa or Maracyn Plus was a good start, I would suggest a much stronger treatment at this point of AAP Spectrogram.
Also make sure mineral Cations are present for which the regular AAP Wonder Shell at 1/4 dose would be helpful for (the Medicated would be a better follow up here)

Finally, lower temperature to 75 while treating

Product Source:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquatronics.html

Carl

[lefty]

Hi Carl,

Thank you for your response. The sponge filter and wonder shell are now on my list. I will also try the baths.

Have been considering swabbing fins with 35% h202. Any experience with this method? Saw it on you tube, channel- Foo the flowerhorn

PS- no nipping from Cory cats. I realize now the genetic problems & poor health of many pet store Bettas. What started as a fun & educational hobby has turned south as watching poor Betta deteriorate isn’t pleasant. I really hope this experience turns around. Carl, thanks again for sharing your experience & knowledge.

[lefty]

Would you add spectrogram to the baths or treat in main aquarium while simultaneously doing baths?

If you agree with the h202, how would that fit into this treatment regiment?

[lefty]

Wow. Now having ammonia spikes to .5ppm after completing triple sulfur in main tank.

[devonjohnsgard]

I agree that KH and GH would have the most effect on the fish fin rot. So, getting the fish in more mineral rich water will help long term. Treatment would also be more successful.

Atison Spa might be a great choice for you, with 1/4 amount the wonder shell.

I think this would be a good read for you.
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Bettas.html

Here's a helpful video.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpbQ_k0CVP4

[Carl]

Jun 26, 2018 16:27:40 GMT -5 lefty said:

Would you add spectrogram to the baths or treat in main aquarium while simultaneously doing baths?

If you agree with the h202, how would that fit into this treatment regiment?

sorry for the slow response, a lot on my plate right now


Anyway, I would use the Spectrogram in the main tank, with some at double dose n the baths as an option if recovery is slow.

As per Hydrogen Peroxide, this is good if there is noticeable infection, sores, etc on the fins. HOWEVER of the fins are deteriorating, the strong oxidative affects of it will actually make the problem worse by destroying tissue.
A better choice is AAP Wound Control/Merbromin

Resource:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquatronics.html#wound

Further Reading:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumMedication3.html#hydrogen_peroxide

Carl

[lefty]

Update:
Parameters-
Ammonia 0 (finally)
Nitrites 0
Nitrates 5
GH 150 (strip read)
KH 40 (strip read)

Thank you for the responses... I can relate to being busy and these extra aquarium chores certainly don’t help! The triple sulfa 4 Day treatment totally killed my bio filter so I’ve been recycling my tank with 50% water changes daily and stability.

Carl, The link provided had everything I needed and more. Very very thorough. I’ve been giving Betta baths for half an hour twice a day if possible with what I had available...
Dosage for 9 cup container (little less than 1/2 gal):
1/2 tsp AQ salt
A little under 1/4 tsp epsen salt
5/6 drops methalyne blue
A piece of jungle fungus tab broken down to a double treatment of tank dosage (1 gal equivalent sliver) (nitrofurazone)

I did one treatment h202 10% food grade swabbed directly on tail. He seemed pretty shaken up about the whole affair but looked good the next day.

His fins look like theyre growing back especially at the framework of his veil tail like tiny bones or spikes sticking out. It looks like his caudal fins still have ulcerations and look red unless he’s changing color or it’s part of the heeling process. Have pics but not sure how to upload from iPhone.

Unfortantly one of the Cory cats, “shorty” didn’t make it. He was much smaller and feeble compared to the other two. RIP shorty.

What do you recommend for water changes going forward?
Going out of town so Betta won’t be getting his baths.
Devon, Will def get a miracle shell and look into Betty spa. Spectrogram May still be in the near future just not anytime in the next week. Is there anything low maintanence that can be performed by fish sitter for a few days?

Happy 4th!

[devonjohnsgard]

The H202 swab is suppose to be 3%... 10% is a bit strong. I would dilute it 50%.

I don't think there's much a sitter can do. Other than the normal feeding if the fish is still eating. I would ask them to do any treatment.

[Carl]

Jul 3, 2018 12:05:48 GMT -5 devonjohnsgard said:

The H202 swab is suppose to be 3%... 10% is a bit strong. I would dilute it 50%.

I don't think there's much a sitter can do. Other than the normal feeding if the fish is still eating. I would ask them to do any treatment.

I agree.

While strong H002 swabs can be effective, these swabs can be too effective and cause as many problems or more than they solve

Carl

[bettarescue]

I am so sorry for the late entrance! Per my own experience, I would not apply hydrogen peroxide to the tail, I also feel it will cause more pain and deterioration then aiding in healing at this point.

Also, have you given any thought to upgrading or moving the cories? A 5 gallon with a Betta and 3 pigmys is def on the crowded side, even with the 2 remaining you would want a larger shoal to keep them comfortable and a 5 gal can’t give them enough ground space.

A clearish skin between rays means healing. I’m thinking this could be from an aeromonas infection, the red does not point specifically to septicemia (though it can), rather red irritated and raw flesh that is called ulceration. Can you explain in the best detail how this progressed? In the beginning were there holes or rips, or just huge pieces missing at once? Have you seen any of the flesh falling off?

[lefty]

Thank you for joining the discussion bettarescue.
Betta has some regrowth but the ulceration at the tail tip looks the same. Uploading a pic to this thread would be helpful, moderator, would you be so kind as to allow for that action or point me in the right direction?

The Cory cats have been re-homed. Now I want to concentrate on getting betta well.

Water perameters-
Ammonia- 0
Nitrites- 0
Nitrates- 10
Gh-300
Kh-80

I first noticed the fins splitting and a hole or two. The fin tips looked white at the ends and frayed.



Currently we have 1 blue veil tail betta in 5 gal.
78 degrees, cycled, whisper filter, wonder shell quarter.
Going forward do I resume baths? Water changes? Spectrogram?

[devonjohnsgard]

To add a picture, click the Reply button on the top of this Quick Reply box. There's an add attachment button. The picture has to be small. That, or add the picture to something like Google Pics and share the link.

The bath and spectogram should have been done 7-10 days. Did this get done... If so, was their slight progress with healing?

[Carl]

A picture might be helpful.

If using the "Reply" in this board (not quick reply), in th right corner, there is a box to click on to add attachment

Or you could simply host the picture as per this pinned post:
everythingaquatic.proboards.com/thread/4292/posting-pictures-using-dropbox-tutorial

Also if you could provide some recent history of treatment. By this I mean what has been done (if anything) in the last 7-10 days

Carl

[lefty]

we performed 7 days of baths twice daily while changing 50% of water daily.  Added prime & stability.  The week following this regiment consisted of 20% water changes daily, only prime added to water.  we see Regrowth but his tail is still red (ulceration?).  It wasn't red until this past week. 

Baths consisted of:

Dosage for 9 cup container (little less than 1/2 gal):
1/2 tsp AQ salt
A little under 1/4 tsp epsen salt
5/6 drops methalyne blue
A piece of jungle fungus tab broken down to a double treatment of tank dosage (1 gal equivalent sliver) (nitrofurazone)

Attachments:

[Carl]

Thanks for the added information/pictures.

Looking at the pictures in particular, I do not think the added stress of fish baths are need at this point, nor in tank treatment.

I would simply se AAP/SeaChem StressGuard everyday for about a week.
MAYBE then consider the Medicated Wonder Shell as a follow up

Resource:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Seachem.html#stressguard

Carl

[lefty]

Update:

betta’s eating & frisky but the redness(ulceration?) has progressed on caudal fin.  Also seems like pectoral fins are receding or becoming see through at the edges.  He doesn’t build bubble nests anymore.  Attached you’ll find a few pics... could you kindly offer additional advice on what this might be (still fin rot/ bacterial infection?) and How to cure this once and for all!

Currently just finished 8 days of nitrofurozone as directed.  Now I’m doing 20% water changes daily & using a regular wonder shell.  

5 gal
0 ammonia/ 0 nitrites/ 10 nitrates
78 degrees
Filter with sponge no carbon
silk plants & gravel
prime conditioner
wonder shell quarter
new life spectrum food x3-6 pellets daily
no tank mates

Past treatments:
in addition to 25-50% water changes daily...
June- triple sulfa (week in-tank)
1 time h202 swab
beginning July- 9 days of fish baths twice/day for 30 min 
end July- 8 days in-tank Nitrofurozone

Attachments:

[Carl]

Actually your betta looks quite good.
Age and continued treatment can takes its toll on the betta's activity.

I would definitely suggest a holiday from meds, with maybe Medicated Wonder Shells after a 10-14 break

In the meantime, AAP StressGuard is a great healing product that is a Redox reducer and NOT a med

Source:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Seachem.html#stressguard

BTW fr the future, for tail rot, often the synergistic combination of Nitrofurazone and Kanamycin found in Spectrogram is a better choice than Nitrofurazone by itself

Source:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquatronics.html#spectrogram

Carl