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Post by goldenpuon on Jan 31, 2009 9:23:22 GMT -5
I'm glad to hear tht Buffy is doing better. As with Petsmart and many other petstores, I have had many of the same sad experiences. I once even was looking for a feeder goldfish at a Pet Supplies Plus a few years back to keep as a pet and the lady there told me the dying goldfish a the bottom were fine and just resting because whenever she put the net near them, they would move away slightly. Luckily I didn't buy them but I left mad at the store for even trying to tell me that!
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Post by kagome on Jan 31, 2009 23:56:15 GMT -5
I honestly wonder sometimes when dealing with people who work at various pet stores if they are trying to fool me with lies because I'm a member of the "ignorant public" or are they themselves ignorant about the animals they are supposed to be taking care of and so they're not actually lying they just don't know any better? Just because someone filled out an application in a pet store and got hired does not mean that they are an animal expert or that they even do a lot of research and reading about the animals they keep. And lots of people who truly do love animals are ignorant of how to take care of them properly and end up with disastrous and unfortunate results. Just look at dogs, they're probably the most common pet of all time and yet many people have no idea what they're doing with them or how to get them to behave or even how to feed them properly. So to a certain extent I try to give many people in the pet industry the benefit of the doubt that they are just ignorant and ignorant of the fact that they are ignorant and not deliberately deceitful. I have run into some real shady people on occasion, but I think they are the exception and not the rule and most that you run into are just uninformed and not malicious.
Buffy is doing great and was even loach dancing today with Spike. She still hid a good part of the day but this is still great progress. She seems to have already taken back dominant loach color rank from Spike, so she seems more like her old bossy self.
My big concern is that the angelicus loach is still breathing rapidly. I am now wondering if I am wrong about him having parasites. What's really confusing is that he was scratching before I started the Metro and now he is not, but the breathing has not improved. Since the angelicus have always been in the 10g they have not ever been exposed to high ammonia, nitrite, or nitrate, at least not on my watch, and the rapid breathing didn't start until they had been in the tank several weeks. Trust me, if he had started doing it immediately I would have complained to the store because that's a pretty expensive fish.
Questions currently boiling my noodle about the 10g:
Could the scratching and rapid breathing be unrelated?
If it's not parasites causing the rapid breathing what the heck is it?
Why does one loach have it and not the other? Or any other fish in the tank for that matter?
Do I somehow not have enough aeration in the tank for the angelicus despite having a way oversized filter and way oversized powerhead in there?
As for the 38g:
How long should I wait before it's safe to put new fish in the 38g where Buffy is? I don't want new fish to get sick.
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Post by kagome on Feb 2, 2009 11:54:53 GMT -5
I managed to scrounge up an air pump and related goodies so I now have airstones running in both tanks although I have to fiddle with the one on the 38g because the pump is vibrating and making noise and that just drives me nuts. I'm hoping that improved aeration will improve the overall health of my botia since they have such high oxygen requirements.
I switched out the bigger and smaller powerheads in my 10g again. The bigger powerhead was just too powerful for that little tank and it made my elderly gourami unhappy. The smaller one has a gph of 80 so it cycles the whole tank 8 times every hour and with the added airstone I think that should be plenty aeration and circulation for the angelicus. I know they liked the stronger current but the gourami just could not handle it. I think I'll add the bigger powerhead in with the clowns in the 38g, it's more appropriate to that tank and they'll like the extra flow.
Buffy the clown loach is doing extremely well. She now looks completely healed up but I am still adding Melafix to make sure the life cycle of that stuff is completely broken and it is gone from the tank for good. She has been very active this morning, she ate well, and she and Spike have been scooting around the tank.
Even after the water change the water in the 38g is a bit cloudy, but honestly I am just not going to panic about that right now. I figure once the melafix cycle is over I will get that straightened out.
In the 10g the angelicus loach is still breathing rapidly even with the addition of the airstone. I just don't know what to do for him. The other one is big and healthy and doesn't seem to have a care in the world.
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Post by Carl on Feb 2, 2009 13:19:22 GMT -5
Questions currently boiling my noodle about the 10g: Could the scratching and rapid breathing be unrelated? Yes, although my opinion is that a parasite and/or gram positive bacterium has damaged his gills, therefore his breathing is labored due to this Bacterium can scar as well, and based on the treatments you have used with success, this may be part of the issue. In fact my guess is that you probably had a parasite AND a bacterium such as StreptococcusOften parasite infections can vary, especially as per gills, since gills are protected by even more mucous than the outer fish body. Often one fish may have more gill mucous than another and therefore resist both bacterium and parasites better than the next. As well injury to the gills from these infections will vary greatly from fish to fish. You are likely fine, and the problem is a fish with ineffective gills struggling with this handicap I would wait 3-3 weeks. Carl
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Post by kagome on Feb 2, 2009 15:06:19 GMT -5
Thanks Carl. Is this gill damage permanent? Will this affect his lifespan? It figures that the most expensive fish in my tanks is the one with gill damage.
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Post by Carl on Feb 2, 2009 15:50:13 GMT -5
Thanks Carl. Is this gill damage permanent? Will this affect his lifespan? It figures that the most expensive fish in my tanks is the one with gill damage. Unfortunately in my experience this is permanent, however I had fish with badly damaged gills live long lives provided conditions were good for these fish (which I am sure you will provide). The problem is scar tissue that does not allow for good gill function, however this does seem to subside somewhat over time as the scar tissue gets less pronounced. Carl
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Post by kagome on Feb 3, 2009 0:56:29 GMT -5
Poor little guy. Well, he is in a very well maintained tank with lots of flow and aeration, and he doesn't get picked on or harassed in there. I feel bad that's he probably messed up for life but I treated him as soon as I realized there was something wrong with him. If his gills are messed up no wonder he's not growing as fast as the other angelicus, Pullo, who looks much thicker and is a bit longer. I think that I will keep them in the 10g permanently. Eventually my elderly gourami will go to the big fish tank in the sky and then they will be the rulers of that tank, with maybe one more angelicus roommate. I worry that if I put poor little Vorenus in the bigger loach tank that he will not be able to compete in there. In the 10g I can observe him more closely and keep and eye on him. Like any of my fish, I want to give him the best life that I can.
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Post by Carl on Feb 3, 2009 9:49:22 GMT -5
I am sure you will Carl
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Post by kagome on Feb 4, 2009 11:53:20 GMT -5
I am sure you will Carl Thanks for the vote of confidence Carl. I try very hard to take really good care of all of my animals. I have a diabetic dog that was diagnosed with the condition a year and a half ago. Lots of people told me I should just put him down but with changes in his care, twice daily shots, and a little extra TLC he is happy and healthy and living a great life here at the farm. Actually, whenever I am on the computer he is at my feet under the desk so he's with me right now. I love my animals and so do everything I can to make them happy and healthy. I guess that's how I've ended up with a five year old gourami who is still lord and master of his tank. We call him the "ubberfisch" because he's so tough and has lived so long. lol Buffy the clown loach is doing great. She is all healed up and has taken back the colors of the dominant fish. Her colors have even improved so that she is just as lovely as Spike. She is no longer hiding all day. She and Spike are now resting under the sponge filter like they used to. I'm going to do one more day of Melafix and then put the carbon back in the filter tomorrow. Vorenus the angelicus is still breathing rapidly but otherwise seems very healthy. Despite not being the most efficient breather he is just as active as Pullo. Pullo, BTW is now getting big enough that he is getting his first true polka-dots. The angelicus really are great cleaner fish and are so much more active throughout the entire day than the clowns, but just like the clowns they put themselves to bed around 8 o'clock even if the light is on. It's so funny, they're like farmers, early to bed early to rise. They are very entertaining to watch. If they weren't so expensive I think that I would have twenty of them. And speaking of the angelicus, there are rumors on the internet that they can be bred in an aquarium. Of course I have no real confirmation of this but I have read a few articles that say that if you have a big enough group of them in a large aquarium that they will actually spawn. I would love to have evidence of this because I think that it would be a worthwhile investment and very rewarding to breed them. I love these little guys but they are still pretty rare in the trade, at least around here they are. And they're such a better choice for most than the clowns. Plus, if you had healthy spawning adults in the aquarium hopefully you would not have to worry so much about internal parasites. I will see if I can find that link about breeding them and I will post it. In a few weeks I am hoping to have the money to buy some zebra loaches for the 38g. I think I will get four of them.
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Post by kagome on Feb 6, 2009 0:16:40 GMT -5
I had a bit of a mishap today. I was cleaning the 38g, to do this I have to stand on a ladder because the tank is very tall and it sits on top of a rather large entertainment center. As I was finishing the gravel vacuum and was stepping off the ladder I lost my balance and so I quickly stepped off the ladder so I wouldn't fall. Well, when I did that I put my foot through the glass of one of the the lids of the tank and broke it. It's a really good thing that I had shoes on because otherwise I would have hurt myself pretty badly. As it was I had broken glass all over the floor and I cracked the plastic pretty bad and now I can't put the lights back on that side of the tank. So far I haven't been able to find any place that sells just the lid without the light fixture which is kind of annoying. I can't believe it's so hard to find a replacement lid. I can't be the only person who has ever broken one. I'm pretty mad at myself about the whole thing, I hate breaking things.
The tank is still cloudy even after a water change. I suspect the cloudiness was coming from the bag of ammo chips that was in the bottom of the tank because when I took it out for the cleaning the water running off of it was ten times cloudier than the rest of the tank water. Once I was done with the cleaning I didn't put the bag back in since I'm pretty sure the tank is done cycling anyway and I don't want there to be a nitrate spike from the bag. Hopefully I now have enough of a bio-filter that this will not cause another ammonia spike, I don't think my nerves can handle it.
Since I have run two full courses of Melafix and the fish seem to be doing well I put carbon back in the filter.
current 38g numbers (from before water today's change):
ammonia= 0
nitrite= 0
nitrate= 20
Gh= 300
Kh= 80
pH= 7.2
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Post by Carl on Feb 6, 2009 15:37:29 GMT -5
Sorry to read of your mishap, and you are not the first to do this, I have many times before. I personally kept lots of scrap glass at my previous service business just for these kinds of mishaps. Since I am reasonably good at cutting glass, I would go back and cut a new piece. For you my suggestion is to measure as best you can the glass lid you need and then go to a glass shop and have them cut you this piece, this may be both quicker and cheaper (although we cut our own glass at our aquarium store, so we usually were very reasonable in price) As to the cloudiness, there is not much you can do, other than the water changes, and adding seasoned bio media from another tank (unless this is a particulate cloud, then there are clarifiers such as Crystal Clear that work for this). A fresh Wonder Shell (non medicated) MAY help too. Carl
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Post by kagome on Feb 6, 2009 18:46:55 GMT -5
I called the glass shop today and they wanted $40 dollars for the piece of glass and since I cracked the plastic as well I gave up on repairing the old lid. I found the hood kit for $23 dollars at Petsmart so I went and picked up the hood kit. Of course as it turns out the frame on my tank is actually an odd size so I had to trim off along the sides and back with tin snips so that it would fit. But at least I now have a lid on the tank again have lights on both sides again. I now also have an extra light fixture now so if I get clumsy again and break that one at least I have an extra. Things are tight right now so it stinks that I had to spend the money on this hood, but at least I had the little extra instead of having to stare at the half lighted tank for weeks. That would have driven me nuts.
As far as the cloudiness goes it is a little better since doing the water change and removing the bag of ammo chips and replacing the carbon. I had already added a new wonder shell a few days ago. As much as the cloudiness bugs me I'm trying not to freak out about it too much and just let things take their course. Hopefully it will clear up soon. I think I will switch back to the once a week cleaning schedule I was on when the tank was cycling until this clears up. This will just thrill my husband who thinks a tank that big should only have to be cleaned once every two weeks unless something is wrong. I guess I'll just have to justify it to him by saying that the cloudiness does constitute something being wrong with the tank.
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Post by kagome on Feb 9, 2009 1:45:28 GMT -5
I am so super grumpy. Some of you may remember that I have been trying to find Chinese butterfly loaches or any kind of the hillstream loach for my tanks. I especially want one for my 10g which has had special extras added just for a hillstream loach. The LFS in that I usually do business with has been blowing me off about getting some in for months and so I went and talked to the lady who does the fish ordering for another LFS in the area. I have bought fish from them in the past, in fact my positively ancient gourami came from there as did my beautiful angelfish that I had in one of my bigger tanks, the one that experienced total tank death when someone poured a drink in it some years ago. Anyway, the lady who does the fish ordering said that she would try to get in anything I asked for if I brought her the scientific name and she would check with the distributor and order them for me. So I asked her if she could get in the butterfly loaches, this was several weeks ago. She told me to check in on Thursdays because that's when the fish order arrives. So I called the following Thursday, she said that her boss had put in the order and had not known to add the loaches, check back next week. I called the next Thursday, they said they were unable to get any, check back the following Thursday. So then the next week I called again, no fish, call back, etc. So the next week my husband and I were in town and right down the road from the store so I thought I would check. The guy who answers the phone says that they don't have any, check back next week. So I called this past Thursday, and actually get the owner of the store this time. I get all excited because he says he remembers getting them in and he goes to see how many he has left. He comes back on the phone and tells me that although he did get some in the previous week they have all been sold. I was pretty mad, although I didn't let him know or take it out on him, it turns out that when my husband and I were right by the store they actually did have the fish I ordered but the nincompoop who answered the phone didn't know what he was talking about and so someone else came in and bought the fish I ordered and have been waiting for for weeks. The owner assures me that he will order them again and that he will hold some until I contact him, but it's still irritating to have wait even longer when I didn't have to. At least they are a really good price, only $5.99 a piece. In the old days they were $14.99 so that's pretty cool. Hopefully some will come in soon.
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Post by brenda on Feb 9, 2009 23:24:13 GMT -5
Oh, that sucks!!!! Well hopefully they come thru and do get more and hold some for you!
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Post by kagome on Feb 10, 2009 23:52:19 GMT -5
:'(The milky slime has popped back up in my 38g. I started adding Melafix again and am also adding Pimafix. I ordered Kanacyn and Furan II from Carl today. I am hoping to finally be rid of this stuff. I can't believe all the crazy problems that I have had with this tank. I pretty much have to chalk it all up to rotten luck since I know that I do take really good care of my fish. I had really hoped that at this point I would have the tank fully cycled and stocked and would only be doing routine maintenance and mostly just enjoying my fish. Now I'll be medicating, doing water changes every other day, daily testing and possibly going through another ammonia cycle. *whine* I still don't know how things are going to go with the angelicus loach Vorenus. He still has the rapid breathing which I guess is pretty much permanent but also he just looks so puny compared to the other loach. Pullo is very big and healthy and so by comparison Vorenus just looks so tiny and frail. I gave him a medicated bath today because I thought I saw him scratching. It seems like I'm doing all the wrong things and none of my fish illness problems are getting any better. I don't know if Vorenus will make it long term.
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Post by Carl on Feb 11, 2009 11:00:02 GMT -5
I would not kick yourself about Vorenus, as you have done the best you can IMO. Keeping mind that scar tissue will make a fish scratch as well. The bath is not a bad idea since this is relatively inert, but I would refrain from using an in tank treatment unless this progresses (maybe then a medicated Wonder Shell)
As per the other problem, I think you were on the right coarse (& yes you do take good care of your fish). However, Melfix is very mild at best, and this is not uncommon even in human treatments where an infection comes back after mild treatments. Even with the medications you got, there is yet a stronger method, but as I mentioned previously would likely wipe out your nitrifying bacteria.
As I noted earlier, when ready I can help you with a UV (although even with a UV, they cannot help with a infection inside a fish, outside of helping with water quality)
Carl
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Post by kagome on Feb 11, 2009 16:02:29 GMT -5
Thanks Carl.
I think that some of the fish I have bought were sick to begin with. This whole thing with the first episode of milky slime popping up on the loaches did not begin until I bought my pleco and although I took precautions I am beginning to think that this nasty bug rode in on him but has only showed up on the loaches because they are more susceptible to infection. There was no sign of sickness in the 38g tank until I moved fish and media from the 10g. I bought the pleco from a LFS that I normally do not do business with and bought him on a whim because he had such nice markings. I was talking to a friend of mine who also bought fish from this same store, a couple of algae eaters. He has had similar problems. But the big difference is he left town for a week and his sister watched the tank for him. Although she did a good job of taking care of the fish she did not know enough to realize the fish were sick. By the time he got back several of his fish were on death's door. He ended up losing his angelfish, some catfish, and the algae eaters he had purchased. All had heavy milky slime. Although this is not hard scientific evidence I also do not think that this is a mere coincidence. My poor friend is really mad, those angels were over five years old and quite large. Both of us have never had any kind of sickness invade our tanks and then we both buy fish from the same store and both of us have fish pop up with milky slime. I think that's good enough reason to not buy fish from there ever again.
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Post by kagome on Feb 13, 2009 0:45:08 GMT -5
Good news, a new batch of butterfly loaches has come in and I am going tomorrow to take a look at them. They are still only $5.99. I found them online for $2.99 but then with shipping added in they would be waaaaaaaaaaaaay more so I'm very happy with the price and that's still a lot less than they used to be.
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Post by kagome on Feb 14, 2009 0:08:12 GMT -5
The medicine I ordered from Carl arrived today so I dosed the 38g with kanamycin and Furan II. Both medicines have a different dosing schedule so I sat down and figured it out and wrote out a schedule that tells me when to dose what and when to do water changes. I wanted to keep myself from getting mixed up and I taped the piece of paper to the side of the tank. I showed it to my husband and he said it made his head hurt and to just let him know when he needed to help me do water changes. lol This treatment cycle is going to be a major pain in the rear but I'm really hoping that this will finally get rid of this milky slime bug. Everyone seems to be doing OK in the 10g. Vorenus is still breathing rapidly but that's just how he is, poor guy. I haven't seen him scratching anymore so hopefully his scar tissue isn't bothering him as much. Now that he has adjusted to being in the tank my clown pleco, Peanut, is coming out in the open a lot more. He really is a nice looking fish. I keep trying to sneak up on him with the camera but I guess he sees that big silver thing and figures a big predator is after him and he zips off to go hide. I love how he looks like he's dusted with sparkly gold. Some day I would love to have a bunch of clown plecos and breed them. I think they're really cool little fish. So yesterday I called the LFS because that's the day that the fish come in. They told me that they had gotten in six butterfly loaches and I got all excited. So today I arranged to go over there, now keep in mind it's about twenty miles away over in the next town. I drove over there in the pouring rain and got drenched getting from the parking lot into the store. I get in there and they tell me that in fact they were mistaken and they did not have any butterfly loaches. I was pretty grumpy, I promise that although I let them know that I was disappointed I was in no way rude to anyone. So at this point they told me they didn't have any when they did and then someone else bought my fish and then they told me that they had some when they didn't and I drove way over there in a monsoon for no reason. I am perturbed.
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Post by corycatwoman on Feb 14, 2009 0:41:51 GMT -5
dang! i think you should speak with the manager and the owner and leave a phone number with someone that knows there rear end from a hole in the ground and have them call you when they for sure have them in and to hold you atleast 3 of them soo you can choose which one or ones you would like. thats only thing i can think of for this situation and id be darn right livid if i was in your shoes but thats just me.
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