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Post by bikeguy33 on Jun 20, 2009 17:15:50 GMT -5
i agree with murdock. at the best of times they are hard to sex....and we all know aout the so called experts at most fish stores. if this aggression continues others will be hurt...he bully will hafta go....
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Post by kagome on Jun 22, 2009 0:14:44 GMT -5
Bill and John-- I am pretty certain that I do indeed have a male and a female. She has the typical purple belly like a female, paler black markings and of them, a slightly stockier build and no dorsal spikes. Although she is a nicely colored female, she has no where near the amount of the electric blue color and is in general not as showy as him (not to insult her beauty, she is a really nice looking fish). He does have dorsal spikes, has very crisp black markings, and is so brightly colored that he is practically gaudy. He does not have a purple belly, he is a bit slimmer in build, and has bigger showier fins. Now, if I did end up with two males because the first just hasn't colored up or grown dorsal spikes, there is no one to blame but me because I felt confident enough to determine males from females based on the research I have done. So if I've got it wrong I'll just have to kick myself and do something about it.
I am very happy to report that things have settled down in the 20g and the female ram has decided to accept the new male. I am calling them Mickey and Minnie, you know for Minnie Driver and Mickey Rourke. lol Anyway, she was still after him a bit this morning so I rearranged the tank again. This time I made them both their own little niches so to speak. She has always liked the back left corner of the tank so I put the really wide fake plant parallel to the back wall again so she has her little lair back. I took the fake rock decor from the middle of the tank and put it to about six inches away from the front glass and right against the glass of the side wall. I then put two fake plants in front of the opening so that it made another lair. He has been hanging out in this front right corner so I thought he might like it. He did like it and hung out in there for a good part of the day. They seem to like tight little spaces to retreat to but they don't seem to like actual caves. By mid-afternoon instead of harassing him all the time she would just chase him until he went in his little corner and then leave him alone. Tonight when I came in they were actually swimming together so I decided to sit and watch them closely. They seem to be getting along great. They're swimming around the tank together as I type and going into both corners to hang out. Now, I'm not trying to credit the rearranging of the tank for totally fixing the problem but I do think it helped lessen the stress on the male while he got through this last leg of the female accepting his presence. I've seen established fish chase newcomers before and then accept them after a few days. But this helped get her off his back a few hours quicker I guess.
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Post by kagome on Jun 22, 2009 22:59:10 GMT -5
So far so good. The rams seem pretty happy so I am keeping my fingers crossed. They don't seem that crazy about the flake food so I thought I would try some new foods. I tried freeze dried brine shrimp spirulina mix the other day. The rainbows really love it but the rams said thanks but no thanks to it. I know that they love the frozen blood worms so I thought I would try some other frozen foods. I tried some frozen brine shrimp, just a tiny pinch and they went after them. But every time they spit them out and then just left them alone. I got another frozen food but brine shrimp are a big part of it so I didn't even try it. However, I had read that they really like worms in general so I had picked up some freeze dried tubifex worms as well. The rams went after those tubifex worms like a starving man at Thanksgiving dinner. So I'm going to stick with the tubifex and frozen blood worms for the rams and the other two kinds of frozen food won't go to waste since the rainbows will eat practically anything. Luckily they will never get big enough to swallow my hand or else I know they would try it. lol
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Post by murdock6701 on Jun 23, 2009 8:21:39 GMT -5
good job Kagome - while the SA dwarf cichlids are supposedto be mellow, they are after all cichlids and do chase and can be aggressive, bu the germans are just so gorgeous! good luck w/ them! introducing fish one at a time can always be a challenge in an established tank - I usuually oull all the fish out, sperate them, rearrange the decor and introduce them all at once - pain in the butt but it confuses them enough that they spend more time looking for "their" spot than they do defending one
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Post by Carl on Jun 23, 2009 10:16:02 GMT -5
I am glad you found a food your Rams will eat well. However continue to attempt to feed the flakes (especially high Spirulina flakes), as Ram Cichlids need more vegetable in their diet. You can also "sneak" this into their diet by soaking the frozen or FD worms in a "slurry" of Spirulina 20 or similar food. If live worms are fed (which I did with many of my cleints, I almost always gut loaded the worms by feeding them this slurry. See this article for more about this subject: Fish Nutrition; Gut loading foodsCarl
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Post by kagome on Jun 24, 2009 23:10:24 GMT -5
introducing fish one at a time can always be a challenge in an established tank - I usuually oull all the fish out, sperate them, rearrange the decor and introduce them all at once I agree that would be the way to go and had the first male I bought not keeled over on me it would have gone that way. Your point about removing the other cichlid, rearranging, then adding everyone back in at once is a very good one. However, I do not currently have a tank that I could have put the older ram in. Once again I am reminded that I really must set up the old 10g as a hospital/isolation tank. I think that with the rams I might still have qualms about this. As many of us have noted in this thread the rams can be quite delicate. Since I already had the one ram established in the tank and had at least a tiny bit of assurance that she was going to make it in that tank I would then be hesitant to stress her out for the sake of another ram that might or might not be so well suited to the tank. It's such a double edged sword, because the new ram would have better chances without the added stress of being the new kid on the block, but at what risk to your already established fish? With hardier fish I think that would hands down be the way to go, but with rams....scary. I'm glad that I got away with just switching the decor around. I think trying to put Minnie in with the rainbows, even just temporarily, would have been disastrous so I just didn't have a place to stash her. Those rainbows could worry a piranha to death. Carl, your point about the rams needing the veggies in their diet is a very good one also. I will make sure to give them the flake frenzy in the morning when they are very hungry. I like the idea of gut loading but these guys are too small to eat anything you would gut load. I'll give them tubifex or blood worms in the afternoon. I think when I run out of flake frenzy I will try the spirulina 20. I know the rainbows will eat it but I'll just have to give it the old college try with the rams. The rams will go after any kind of food you put in, even the brine shrimp, but then instead of swallowing it they spit it out and then won't have anything to do with it. They swallow about half of the flake food but spit out the rest, I'm not sure why other than they are being picky. They go to an awful lot of trouble to eat the blood worms, with half the worm hanging out of their mouths like tiny Twizzlers while they work on swallowing it. So I know that physically swallowing it isn't a problem. I only feed one kind of food at a time so they'll just have to put up with a nutritious breakfast and can have their candy worms in the afternoon after they finish their homework. lol I had a terrible mishap yesterday. It was tank cleaning day and I was vacuuming the gravel in my 38g and my bushy nose pleco got sucked up into the vacuum! I freaked out but I at least had the presence of mind to kink the hose so that he swam back out. I am always very careful to not suck up the fish, it's the cory cats that I'm always afraid of getting and so I don't really know how this happened. I think he was hiding behind the sponge filter and may have bolted out when I moved it and ended up in the vacuum. I netted him and put him in a one gallon container briefly so I could get a good look at him and he did not seem to be injured at all. I think we both were just terrified by the experience but no actual harm was done. I really hope to not relive that experience. For a second there I thought I had killed him by sucking him up and I was so relieved when he thrashed his way out of there. At least he seems to be doing well today.
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Post by murdock6701 on Jun 25, 2009 7:10:50 GMT -5
Kagome, you don't necessarily have to move the fish to another tank to add a new one - I use the 2 lb plastic coffee cotainers and plunk a fish in each one - handy for adding water due to evaporation loss as well and MB baths
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Post by Carl on Jun 25, 2009 9:58:44 GMT -5
Sorry about the Plec. vacuuming accident, but do not be too hard on yourself, as these are tough fish. i have vacuumed more fish than I care to admit, many much more delicate/soft than a Plec, with no deaths to date (I have injured a fish though). As to gut loading, this adds very little to the girth of the worm (despite the implication). In soaking FD or frozen this is more an act of absorption than gut loading since a FD worm cannot ingest food. Even true carnivores get "veggies" in their diet (as I think I point out in my Fish Nutrition article, but I will re-read it to make sure). they do this by eating fish, worms, crustaceans, etc that have this material in their gut. Unfortunately most prepared or live foods sold are devoid of this food source in their gut. Carl
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Post by goldenpuon on Jun 25, 2009 12:12:23 GMT -5
Sorry to hear about the mishap with the pleco. The important thing is that he is ok. Don't beat yourself up over it. It was just an accident.
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Post by bikeguy33 on Jun 25, 2009 22:41:48 GMT -5
think of the vaccuum as a carnival ride for the pleco.....no harm done and they are very hardy...
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Post by Carl on Jun 26, 2009 9:21:53 GMT -5
think of the vaccuum as a carnival ride for the pleco.....no harm done and they are very hardy... I like your analogy Bill! Carl
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Post by kagome on Jul 3, 2009 0:09:49 GMT -5
Carl, I understand what you mean about predators getting nutrition from the flora in the guts of their prey. Do you think that one meal a day of quality flake food and then two small meals of worms later on is enough for them to get what they need nutritionally? I honestly just don't have the time to soak foods and mix stuff together. I wish they would just eat either the frozen or freeze dried brine shrimp spirulina mix, but they are just too picky.
I am slowing raising the temp in the 20g. The water coming out of the tap is now over 80 degrees and it will just be easier to do water changes if the tank is closer to 78 or so. I can lower the temp of new water with ice but frankly that is such an imprecise method and it can take forever to get the temp where you want it. I am going to try and monitor things very closely. I am a bit worried that raising the temp may increase aggression levels. So far the rams are getting along very well. Every now and again I will see them squabble a little bit but it's mostly all bluff. They don't even seem to actually nip each other anymore. They spend the majority of their time hanging out together and following each other peacefully around the tank.
I am most pleased with the 38g. The emeralds are starting to develop their adult fins. I can't wait for them to have that huge anal fin. With the boesemani and Australians, one of each pair is noticeably bigger than the other. When purchased they were the same but in both cases one has grown more than the other. I am very careful to make sure that everyone has a chance to eat. I'm wondering if maybe, despite my best efforts, that I have male/female pairs with those two species and not all males as I hoped. Color wise they all scream male, but sometimes fish will fool you. At least I know that both emeralds are male. They are both growing very noticeable anal fins.
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Post by Carl on Jul 3, 2009 10:28:37 GMT -5
Carl, I understand what you mean about predators getting nutrition from the flora in the guts of their prey. Do you think that one meal a day of quality flake food and then two small meals of worms later on is enough for them to get what they need nutritionally? I honestly just don't have the time to soak foods and mix stuff together. I wish they would just eat either the frozen or freeze dried brine shrimp spirulina mix, but they are just too picky. You do not have the time; you mean you have a life?? ;D Sorry, just could not help joking a little here! Anyway, I think as long as they get some vegetable matter into them by whatever means, this is fine. With live worms or frozen, I simply kept them in Spirulina slurry in the refrigerator, so little time was spent, although I had to rinse the live worms once or twice per day or they would die from their on waste from consuming this slurry. As for water temperature for changes, I often did not worry too much about this within reason. For instance I kept containers of pre-mixed saltwater on my truck and often by the time I reached a client it was rarely the same temperature as the tank. However since I changed no more than 25% of the water at a time (often less with Marine); even if the tank was 78 F and the container water was 70, this would only bring the temperature down 2 degrees, and even this was rare since i added the water slowly and topped off (for evaporation) with heated water during this time. I know your problem is opposite (the new water is too warm), but the principle is the same. While filling slowly you could float a frozen 2 liter pop bottle or similar. Carl
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Post by kagome on Jul 13, 2009 22:48:28 GMT -5
I am happy to report that all seems to be going well with my tanks at the moment. My rams are growing and aggression in that tank seems to be a thing of the past. Every once in a while the squabble but it's all just a big bluff, they don't even actually touch each other. I am so glad that issue resolved itself, I would hate to get rid of Minnie, she is just so pretty and goofy. Mickey has gotten even more colorful and I can't believe how long his dorsal spikes have gotten! I am pretty sure that they are indeed a boy and a girl and that helped the aggression to be only short term. I keep trying to take pictures of the two of them to show you guys but thus far nothing has turned out. I'm going to borrow my mom's camera because it has a higher resolution and maybe I can get a pic of them that is not all fuzzy like a picture of Bigfoot.
It seems that my bushynose pleco, Boris, has not suffered any long-term damage from being sucked up in the gravel vacuum. He does now give it quite the wide berth when I am cleaning the tank, but that's probably a good thing.
The rainbows are doing great, and as ever are constantly begging for food. I am thinking about trading in my two Australians for a pair of Turquoise. Next to the Boesemani and the Emeralds they are rather lackluster and I think the turquoise would be a better match. My husband is not thrilled by the Australians, he thinks they are drab compared to the others. My other thought was to trade in the Australians and get a small school of four of the praecox since they don't get very big. I would like either, but I think my husband would like the turquoise better, he's a big fan of blue.
The cories in both tanks are doing great. For a while there I had a runty one in both tanks but somehow that has evened out and they are now all the same basic size now. I was worried that the runty ones would be completely out competed by the others so I was really happy to see them thrive and catch up.
The butterfly loaches in the 29g are doing very well. They have essentially divided the tank into quadrants with each getting their own territory that they defend but then they also have two community areas where no one tries to chase anyone else off. The community areas are the intake tube/sponge prefilter for the HOB and then the area of the bubble stream from the airstone. They will even amiably sit right next to each other in these two areas without any sort of posturing or nudging. It's so weird, but since they seem happy and I no longer have to ever scrape algae in that tank, I'm not going to try and fix what isn't broken.
Pullo the polka dot loach seems to be doing great. I feel bad about him not having buddies but that just hasn't worked out so far. The other lone ranger in that tank, Peanut the clown pleco, seems to be doing great. He is still so shy that I almost never get to see him. I get my best look at him on tank cleaning day when I pull out his cave so he has no where to hide.
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Post by Carl on Jul 14, 2009 9:36:59 GMT -5
Nice report Kagome, I am happy to read all is well in your tank (except for maybe the boring colors of the Rainbows) Carl
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Post by goldenpuon on Jul 14, 2009 12:56:09 GMT -5
I am very happy to see that your fish are doing well. After all the trouble you had, it's great that things are settling down. Great work with your fisj Kagome. With all the time and money you put into it, you more than deserve for things to be easy-going with your fish like theya re now. Congrats Kagome!
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Post by kagome on Jul 14, 2009 23:08:44 GMT -5
I think that if they were in a tank by themselves the Australians wouldn't seem so drab, but in tank next to two knockouts like the emeralds and the boesemani that they just seem sort of plain. I think part of it is that you can't see their iridescence unless you are standing right next to the tank whereas the boesemani and emeralds are just so colorful no matter where you are in the room. I have to admit that the more I think about it the more I see it from my husband's perspective and I am going to look into picking up some different rainbows.
Thank you for the kind words Renee. It is nice to just sit back and enjoy my tanks instead of constantly worrying about them and having one disaster after another. Now I just do my routine maintenance and other than that and feeding I spend all my tank time just watching the fish and smiling at the tanks I have put together. I really love it that I have so many fish with such great personalities that interact with me so much. I really hope that I do get to add a new and bigger tank this winter so I can add more wet pets to the family.
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Post by kagome on Jul 20, 2009 23:09:44 GMT -5
OMG I think my rams just might actually spawn! They are definitely showing courting behavior, her belly has turned a purple/red, he is displaying like crazy and they seem to be trying to decide on a nesting spot. They are currently 'cleaning' two different spots at the back of the tank. They both still have visible vents and it seems like she has a round tummy all of a sudden today.
Before I go completely crazy (or rather drive my poor husband crazy) and try to set up a fry tank of some sort I am going to see if they actually do spawn. I think I will go ahead and make the relatively small investment in a tank divider so that if they spawn and the eggs disappear I will know if it is infanticide and not worry whether or not it was the cories. Plus, probably less stress on the rams if they don't have to run anybody off constantly. I have heard that many commercially raised rams lay dud eggs and then eat them. Hopefully I have lucked out in the extreme and if they do spawn they will not only be fertile but also good parents. I keep trying to get them to go to Lamaze class but they seem to just go to the mall and spend the tuition money on Starbucks, naughty fish!
Wish me luck!
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supi
Full Member
Posts: 66
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Post by supi on Jul 21, 2009 7:49:23 GMT -5
Good luck Kagome. Lamaze class for fish. That is too funny.
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Post by babygeige on Jul 22, 2009 10:04:50 GMT -5
lol, that's cute!
Hopefully they'll be good parents.
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