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Post by seadragon on Jan 27, 2018 14:17:43 GMT -5
My Sterbai Cory got himself stuck between the heater and pre-filter sponge on the filter uptake.
Once I found and released him, he was wobbly for a bit but stabilized, and had these signs: - scuffs on head - underside of face reddened (from suction of filter I think)
I started dosing STRESS GUARD right away and left him 'to see'.
Today his behaviour is normal but he has:
SAPROLEGNIA by his pectoral fin at the body BREATHING appears a bit pronounced
I gave him a 30 min. METHYLENE BLUE BATH and he's in a quarantine tank awaiting treatment.
Unless I hear back from you very quickly with a different suggestion, my plan is to start FUNGUS CURE.
Whether you agree with the Fungus Cure or suggest a different med, I'd like to know if i should/can use STRESS GUARD in with the medicine.. i.e. do you know if they're safe together and would it help? (Seachem wouldn't confirm since Fungus Cure isn't their product)
Thanks so much for any advice you can give us.
EDIT: I see in another saprolegnia related post you asked for these parameters so here you go.. GH=8 KH=4 PH=7.6
UPDATE: I'VE STARTED WITH FUNGUS CURE, AND REALIZED THE TANK WATER USED IN THE QT TANK WILL HAVE SOME STRESS GUARD IN ALREADY, HOPEFULLY THAT'S OK.
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Jan 27, 2018 14:59:03 GMT -5
Sorry for the issue.
I've actually beat Saprolegnia will just increase of water changes and use of electroyles. Are you using anything like the AAP Wonder Shell or SeaChem Replenish?
Thank you for the parameters. The GH is telling me upping it with AAP Wonder Shell would take care of the problem. I'm thinking medicating would help also. Upping GH would help a more natural healing process and help prevent the issue again.
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Post by seadragon on Jan 27, 2018 19:17:32 GMT -5
Thanks for your reply.
I'm a litte uncertain on some things, such as beating saprolegnia with increased water changes + electrolytes. Tis is due to injury, but also he's not in main tank he's in a QT tank, so.. I have Replenish which I can not use in the main tank anyway because it's planted.. but could use in the QT tank.. should I be?
Also, what should the GH be then? Because our tap water here is naturally 8. What's wrong with 8, I don't understand the connection....?
'Medication would help also'... any opinion on the Fungus Cure? BTW he's had it in for 4+hrs, seems fine.
I was asking about the compatibility of STRESS GUARD with FUNGUS CURE. So the tank water used for the QT could have still had some of the STRESS GUARD from yesterday's dose in it, but I'm still cautious... is it safe to, and should I be dosing the QT tank specifically with the meds in there?
Thanks again
UPDATE: BTW IF UNCLEAR, BY GH=8, that meant 143 mg/L and KH=4, that meant @71 mg/L
UPDATE SUN (JAN 28/18) EVENING: He's strong, but saprolegnia is no better, maybe worse. ** I have Replenish but didn't add as I know it contains salt (sodium chloride) and so I'm guessing this is not safe for cories....? I also have AQUA VITRO CALCIFICATION which will raise the GH.. would that be a good thing to use? Again, need to know what level GH and am still confused on the need to raise the GH.
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Jan 29, 2018 13:39:19 GMT -5
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Post by seadragon on Jan 31, 2018 13:17:03 GMT -5
Thanks Devon. UPDATE: I'd started treatment on the 27th with FUNGUS CURE and continued with daily METHYLENE BLUE BATHS. He's had STRESS GUARD in his water, also a bit of CALCIFICATION for the GH. He'll be done his treatment time this afternoon and generally he's much better, most of the fungus turned brown and fell off him. There's one stubborn puff on his pectoral fin (the fin is quite eroded). It has turned brownish but won't come off. So next steps to take are uncertain...any thoughts? Not sure if I can continue the Fungus Cure, the box doesn't indicate...maybe Ikeep him in QT for a while with clean water (from main tank) and Stress Guard? Re: VIDEOS: I appreciate the videos, thanks.. did not know you guys are on youtube.. that's awesome. A couple things/questions... In dosing GH because any present 'may not' be active, if you have 8 already, dose and arrive at 15, you really don't know if you have 8 or 15, right? (actually didn't note anything said about testing levels).. But what IF you really had 8 and now have 15 are there not levels which are too high for some fish and creatures? Still trying to grasp how you can have a high GH but still acidic enough for some species.. sounded like its a matter of raising GH but countering that with things to remove it (peat, driftwood and I imagine IAL) If so, this confuses me because if you remove it you no longer have those electrolytes ... I was sure in the video you said you need to use GLUCONATE for it's bioavailabity... yet your recommend REPLENISH and it is calcium/magnesium/potassium/ and sodium CHLORIDE... .....? ON A SIDE NOTE*** I breed mystery snails, have to supplement constantly and would love to know what form is best for their shells? Have used MINERALIZE, CALCIFICATION, and had EQUILIBRIUM recommended... I like the idea of the wonder shell approach but am not comfortable now knowing what exactly is in those. Concerned about having magnesium as well... Sorry if I'm overwhelming you with Q's.. would love to solve these things once and for all
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Jan 31, 2018 13:40:54 GMT -5
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Post by seadragon on Jan 31, 2018 15:17:18 GMT -5
If you are dosing Fungus Cure, you would want to continue it for 7-10 days for a whole antibiotic treatment. Per the pkg, the treatment is DOSE WAIT 48, DOSE WAIT 48 AND FILTER OUT MEDS... =4 days... so it's okay to extend 1-2 more doses?
For GH, just test your tap, then the tank, then dose your GH booster and you would know how much is in the tank. GH can be as high as 27dgh before any problems. Again sorry.. but if my tap =8 and I boost then retest and get 12... is my GH 4 (b/c you assumed the first 8 is 'dead' )?
Is 27dgh safe for snails though?
Chloride is not the best, but is still usable. There's just better. Here's the ingredients of the shell: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/MedicatedWonderShell.htmlThank you, I didn't realize you shared that info
How come you would want magnesium, it's very important for osmoregulation www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2006/12/how-do-fish-drink.htmlSorry I was unclear, by 'concerned about having magnesium as well', I meant I DO WANT IT so I was hoping you'd recommend one of the products that includes it
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Feb 1, 2018 13:24:03 GMT -5
I messed up. I was thinking Fungus Cure had something for bacterial issues too. It doesn't. Just follow the directions and if you don't get results, think about a different treatment. Maybe the Medicated Wonder Shell would be prefect. You need electrolytes and it has a wide spread treatment including fungus treatment for mild cases. Then follow up with the regular Wonder Shell.
The GH would be 12 still, but you would just be certain that there's a charge with the minerals. The GH reading is just measuring the amount of mineral, just not the electrical charge of the mineral.
27 would be ok for snails, but I'm not saying you want that high. You still want to make sure water changes are down to remove the deleted GH mineral, managing the level lower.
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Post by Carl on Feb 2, 2018 10:48:38 GMT -5
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Post by seadragon on Feb 4, 2018 13:19:44 GMT -5
I messed up. I was thinking Fungus Cure had something for bacterial issues too. It doesn't. Just follow the directions and if you don't get results, think about a different treatment. Maybe the Medicated Wonder Shell would be prefect. You need electrolytes and it has a wide spread treatment including fungus treatment for mild cases. Then follow up with the regular Wonder Shell. The GH would be 12 still, but you would just be certain that there's a charge with the minerals. The GH reading is just measuring the amount of mineral, just not the electrical charge of the mineral. Okay, think I got it now, thanks27 would be ok for snails, but I'm not saying you want that high. You still want to make sure water changes are down to remove the deleted GH mineral, managing the level lower. Right.. just wanted to know safety level for the snails
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Post by seadragon on Feb 4, 2018 14:25:26 GMT -5
I will jump here and add more information as per treatment, assuming water parameters are in order, please read this article in full, as it is very important going forward: www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2016/09/how-to-treat-sick-fish.htmlHave read your articles so many times in the past but see revisions unmanly now so will review.. thanksFungus Cure is decent Saprolegnia treatment, containing Acriflavin & Victoria Green (it was discontinued by API about a year ago) It's still on the shelves here in Toronto My advice from what I have read is a Medicated Wonder Shell combined with Triple Sulfa or Maracyn Plus Thanks Carl, this help is much appreciated. SUNDAYAfter 3 doses FUNGUS CURE (6 days), then 2 days with Kordon RID FUNGUS, with METH. BLUE BATHS daily., he is NOT BETTER, just worse.. Fungus is not just at the pectoral fin/body joint but also under body in a spot. It appears denser and tinged greY/green (maybe from meds)I was able to get TRIPLE SULFA yesterday and started treatment. (IT'S ONLY BEEN ONE TREATMENT BUT TODAY LOOKS NO BETTER).Sorry but I'm out of your Wonder/Medicated Wonder shells at the moment and don't have Merbromin, and don't feel I can get these from you in time to help this guy... I'm continuing with the TRIPLE SULFA, but should I add anything, do something different with what I have? I really don't want to lose him.> Obviously I have Fungus Cure which has malachite green and acriflavine. as you're suggesting the med. wonder shell, but would this work combined with Triple Sulfa if that's a possibility?> I also have: KANAPLEX, POLY GUARD, FURAN-2, METROPLEX, METHYLENE BLUE, POTASSIUM PERMANGANATE, RID FUNGUSHe is in the QT tank with fresh water (from main tank), has flow, aeration, some REPLENISH, some CALCIUM shell (not Wondershell). PARAMETERS ARE: GH=13 (236), KH=4 (70), PH=7.6/7.8
* REMEMBER IT'S A CORY (if they're sensitive?) Thanks again. I haven't had this where Fungus Cure didn't fix it right up before, so I really appreciate your input at this point
UPDATE SUNDAY EVENING
He had a 25% wc + second dose of TRIPLE SULFA tonight at 7pm He is not doing better, now has thick 'fungus' in his gills.
UPDATE LATER SUNDAY NIGHT (1 AM)
I couldn't stand how the saprolegnia was growing on him, so after rereading your article on its treatment, I made a decision put him in new water (from main tank) and started him on POLY GUARD. I know you should give a med 3 doses before deciding and this is now more changes, but it wasn't going to get better leaving him as is. He has again a small dose of REPLENISH, calcium shell, filtration with media and aeration. Fingers crossed.
MONDAY MORNING He has survived the night.
</attachment></attachment> Resources: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/MedicatedWonderShell.htmlwww.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumPharmaceuticalsAPI.html#sulfawww.americanaquariumproducts.com/FritzMardelKordon.html#maracyn_plusMaracyn Oxy is another potential treatment, but make sure your aquarium is stable if used (removal of snails might be advised too) www.americanaquariumproducts.com/FritzMardelKordon.html#maracynoxyFinally, for direct application, if Methylene Blue is not helping, you might step up to Merbromin www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquatronics.html#woundFurther Treatment Information: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Columnaris.html#treatment2Carl </div></div>
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Feb 5, 2018 13:30:45 GMT -5
So, now see how the treatment goes. You could also try methylene blue swab then bath twice a day.
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Post by Carl on Feb 5, 2018 13:51:52 GMT -5
PolyGuard is a good choice to ty, I've not used it much being new, but the meds contained there in have worked in combinations for me
Triple Sulfa is not effective by itself for Saprolegnia, especially advanced cases, It needs to be combined, if anything with Fungus Cure (although the Medicated Wonder Shell combination is a better choice)
With this aggressive a case of Saprolegia, I would also suggest a direct application of Merbromin, as this is much stronger than Methylene Blue. I do realize you probably can get this in time, but I would be still wrong to not point out what is best.
I will finally add that this case strikes me as much more aggressive than normal which leads me to believe this is a weak fish since Saprolegnia preys upon damaged tissue in particular with fish with a weak immune system (this is part of my reason for the Medicated Wonder shell so as to help with mineral Cations too.) Even just a Regular Wonder Shell might help too (although probably too late now) as it does a better job at supplying mineral Cations than Replenish
Carl
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Post by seadragon on Feb 5, 2018 15:02:31 GMT -5
PolyGuard is a good choice to ty, I've not used it much being new, but the meds contained there in have worked in combinations for me Triple Sulfa is not effective by itself for Saprolegnia, especially advanced cases, It needs to be combined, if anything with Fungus Cure (although the Medicated Wonder Shell combination is a better choice) This is good to know for another time
With this aggressive a case of Saprolegia, I would also suggest a direct application of Merbromin, as this is much stronger than Methylene Blue. I do realize you probably can get this in time, but I would be still wrong to not point out what is best. I can add it to my next order; for now perhaps I can step up the Meth. Blue with a swab and more baths
I will finally add that this case strikes me as much more aggressive than normal which leads me to believe this is a weak fish since Saprolegnia preys upon damaged tissue in particular with fish with a weak immune system (this is part of my reason for the Medicated Wonder shell so as to help with mineral Cations too.) This has been a long thread and you did join partway through, so if you've forgotten this detail, it did start with "My Sterbai Cory got himself stuck between the heater and pre-filter sponge on the filter uptake". I understand immune system can always play a part, though it did begin after a specific injury.Even just a Regular Wonder Shell might help too (although probably too late now) as it does a better job at supplying mineral Cations than Replenish Respectfully, I understand your faith in/preference for your Wonder Shells, but I can't help feeling it must be that there are other acceptable ways of providing mineral cations/electrolytes. At the onset of this, REPLENISH was presented to me as another tool, which I've used and along with additional calcium/magnesium and this after a discussion about how knowing your present GH, KH then supplementing and retesting lets you know that you have 'live cations'.. so having done and this and shown the increased levels, I'd like to think I did provide that support.
Carl Thanks again Carl and Devon , I so appreciate your time and efforts to help me with this guy. I'm going to continue, give him every chance. UPDATE TUESDAY MORNING
He's no better but hangin' in.. so I'm still trying!
I have a last question:
I have not used ANY SALT so far because I've understood CORIES can't handle it. Now I've seen this is in your article: "Generally for most fish (even catfish based on University of Florida studies) 2 teaspoons per gallon can be tolerated for up to 30 minutes .."
So... does this mean they CAN HANDLE a certain amount and if so, should I be putting SALT IN HIS BATH TREATMENT AND/OR IN HIS TANK TREATMENT?I'm going to try a Meth. Blue Swab and bath followed by Fungus Cure slightly stronger per another source, in pure treated/mineralized water. In the Fungus Cure treatment, could I add Methylene Blue?
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Post by Carl on Feb 6, 2018 10:49:08 GMT -5
thanks for pointing out this: "My Sterbai Cory got himself stuck between the heater and pre-filter sponge on the filter uptake" This is exactly the type of injury that can allow Saprolegnia to get a start, but it still does not answer why it has been so virulent (which could also simply be a matter of an older fish) As for Replenish; It is an alternative, but it is not as complete and more importantly it is the constant addition of mineral Cations that I have found makes a difference. This though can be accomplished by a regulated drip of a Replenish water combination into the tank. Another alternative (& better too) is using an oolitic sand media in a reactor. With the swab & bath, I would not go past two per day, as I have found that in many cases, the stress then over rides the benefits. As for salt, this is certainly worth a try and in fact should be part of the bath as per the bath article, however for in tank use where it can make even more of a difference, if you read the linked Auburn University study, there is a fine line between enough needed to affect a cure and kill a catfish Carl
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Feb 7, 2018 12:49:19 GMT -5
Replenish is similar. The difference is in the dose method. If constantly dripped into the aquarium, it would be much like the wonder shell. The shell just constantly dissolves, which is the biggest thing. Here's a image to show. It doesn't show the difference between Replenish and the wonder shell, but water changes and wonder shells. A Wonder shell is like a constant water change. Replenish would be like a water change daily (if dosed once a day) WS is just brought up a lot, because it is the best.
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