Lily
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Post by Lily on Oct 30, 2017 17:03:12 GMT -5
Hi--
Haven't been on here for a while. I successfully completed the move I had asked so many questions on back in the spring. Sadly, my orange fancy goldfish, Dorothy, died about 6 or 7 weeks later after that move (in late July), and our remaining goldfish, Crushy (the one who was going blind), appears to be failing fast. Breathing is slow but labored. He began going downhill late afternoon this past Saturday but my son claims he saw him acting a little strangely even a week or two ago.
I ran out of test strips several weeks ago, so I don't know the current condition of the water. I did a 15-20% water change the other day. Was quite late on the water change; unfortunately going through a divorce and some days cleaning the aquarium has gotten pushed to the next day...and the next day. :-( Have a 40-gallon acrylic tank. Crushy eats the Herbivore food; I try to keep a Wonder Shell in the tank (non-medicated lately)...
He's lying on his left side for the past 2 days next to the Hydro Sponge filter (why does this stuff always happen on weekends?). I no longer own a computer so could not reach the library until today.
I have heard that there is a gentle and painless way one can euthanize a fish by using clove oil. Does anyone have any recommendations? I don't have a good feeling about what I'm seeing... My mom said she saw him get up and swim around yesterday early afternoon, picking through the gravel. Otherwise, when I put food in he's not getting up to eat. It's hard watching him like this and wondering how much discomfort he might be in.
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Oct 31, 2017 11:44:00 GMT -5
Sorry for the hard times.
Yes, there is a way to euthanize with clove oil. This is all preference.
I would be curious of your water parameters to know more of why this is all happening.
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Lily
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Post by Lily on Oct 31, 2017 12:58:22 GMT -5
So, you're saying I might still stand a chance of saving him? I'm going to run out and find some test strips.
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Lily
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Post by Lily on Oct 31, 2017 15:29:03 GMT -5
Parameters are as follows (using an API 5 in 1 test kit):
NO3 80 NO2 0.5 pH 6.0 KH 0 GH 180
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Lily
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Post by Lily on Oct 31, 2017 17:32:31 GMT -5
Since the library is getting ready to close, and I won't have access to a computer until tomorrow, when it reopens. I just wanted to let you know that I've learned the pH appears to be too low/acidic, and the nitrites and nitrates are a bit too high. Going to buy a couple of recommended products in the API brochure which came with the test strips to see if it helps. I cannot believe my poor Crushy is still alive; I want to see if I can help him rally back around! Please, if you have any other recommendations, let me know. I will check back here tomorrow.
Thanks, Nancy
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Post by Carl on Nov 1, 2017 9:05:20 GMT -5
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Lily
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Post by Lily on Nov 1, 2017 12:17:51 GMT -5
Thank you so much. I am going to look for these products. I think I may already have the Malawi Buffer...
Would it be OK to rinse with reverse osmosis bottled water, too??
I added 2 API products last night. One of them was (can't remember the name) a product to help bring the pH to 7.0 (I read that 7.5 is ideal for goldfish, but that's all they had available at PetSmart). I also added something called StressZyme+. The parameters are just slightly better. KH still the same (0--very frustrating) NO3 now down to 40; NO2 appears to be either at 0 or 0.5 (hard to tell--such a slight variance in colors on the chart); pH still reading 6.0
Is there any harm in my adding these new products in addition to what I added last night?
I will look for these products. The 2 filters I have are actually for 60-70 gal aquariums (I downsized to a 40 when I had to move). However, I've been concerned for a while now that they are too powerful for this tank, as when I feed the fish the food frequently gets pulled in right away to one or the other, and I end up putting in extra food.
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Nov 1, 2017 13:05:41 GMT -5
You'd just need to test your tap water too and then focus on KH. Don't use pH adjustment. pH adjustments are more stressful on fish (swinging pH) than not having a certain pH. The Alkalinity buffers would bring the KH up.
I'm wondering if you don't have a true Nitrogen Cycle going in the tank. The fact you have .5 No2. I would check ammonia too. If you don't have a cycle, with a high bioload, it would cause the issues your having. If you could get the parameters right, the fish has a chance.
I would also find some SeaChem Prime to detox the water. And SeaChem Stability if you don't have a cycle.
I wouldn't advise RO until we know your tap readings.
I think you don't have a true cycle and the water is toxic for the fish. Along with wild pH swings.
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Post by Carl on Nov 2, 2017 9:04:44 GMT -5
Would it be OK to rinse with reverse osmosis bottled water, too?? For rinsing filters, yes. For in tank use this would not solve the issues As Devon noted, these API "Proper pH" products are never a good way to maintain pH. From our " Aquarium Chemistry" article "I should also note that I do NOT find the use of Neutral pH regulators helpful for community aquariums ditto Discus Buffer). A more natural balance of carbonate buffers and acid buffers (or a mix both natural or supplemented buffers) is much better for long term keeping of a healthy aquarium chemistry equilibrium. These products often use phosphates which are not a healthy way to neutralize pH/KH, and in fact these products drive out ESSENTIAL calcium and magnesium ions!! As SeaChem states on their website; "softens water by precipitating calcium and magnesium". One danger of long term use is that I found, and this is backed up by the basic science of how these Neutral Regulators work along with the importance of calcium & magnesium for ALL fish, is that fish health IS AFFECTED long term.
If an aquarium keeper finds a neutral regulator the only way to stabilize an aquarium pH/KH, this indicates that there are likely too many acid producing organics such as mulm in canister filters (especially in ceramic media) or under gravel, decor, etc. in the aquarium. Another proof of this unnatural stability is if a Wonder Shell is used, it will produce a "dust" on the bottom that is easily stirred into a cloud in the water (due to phosphates in these products).
The bottom line is the use of Neutral Regulators or Discus Buffer such as by SeaChem or API Proper pH 7 is not a healthy nor natural way to maintain good aquarium chemistry and my years of maintaining many 100's of aquariums has born this out (This is not a knock on either company, in particular SeaChem, as most of their products I would highly recommend)!"I do not recommend StressZyme, as while it will work short term, it is primarily Heterotrophs and thus will keep your bio filter from fully establishing Further Reading: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Nitrogen_Cycle.html#productsCarl
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Lily
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Post by Lily on Nov 2, 2017 14:48:29 GMT -5
Thank you so much, Carl and Devon.
This morning I did about a 15% water change (I had just done one--about 15-20% last Saturday as well), and added in a 2nd dose of SeaChem Alkaline Buffer (I hope it doesn't hurt that it was only about 12 hours since the first dose...). Was so glad I found a nearby fish store which carried this product; I picked it up yesterday. I also rinsed the cylindrical sponge filter (can't remember the type/name...I bought it from AAP; connects to air pump). Maybe I shouldn't have, but I squeezed the old water out of that filter too. It was really dirty (sadly, it had been a long time since I rinsed it). I have a Fluval 70 in the (40 gal) tank, too (with "triple" filtration); recently replaced the bottom foam layer, and about 4-6 wks ago, replaced the carbon.
You weren't kidding when you said adding that (Alkaline buffer) would help bring up the KH! I also added in SeaChem Prime (already was using this product, typically add it into the fresh tap water when doing water changes).
I just bought an ammonia test kit; going to run to the store next to get some gloves, as there are scary warnings on the label with this product!
My water became so cloudy with the addition of the buffer... It's so cloudy that I cannot even see Crushy; though it appears he has moved (was in the left rear corner of the tank). He's not floating on the water, so I'm hoping he's still alive.
Here are the most recent parameters. Perhaps checking about an hour after the water change and addition of buffer and Prime wasn't the best time to get an accurate reading, but here is what I got:
AQUARIUM
No3 40-50 (looks close to 60) No2 0 (teetering on 0.5..? so hard to tell the color difference) pH between 7.0 and 7.5 KH 80 (color nearing 120) GH 180
TAP
No3 20 (color teetering towards 10) No2 0 pH 6.5 KH 0 GH 30 (color teetering towards 60)
Just a note... I have gravel to a minimum in this tank--it's just a sprinkling, floor isn't even covered in many places. Also keep decor to a minimum; unfortunately waste always gets trapped under one of the bubblers.
I haven't seen my fish try to eat since last Sunday. How much longer can a fish survive if they aren't consuming anything?
Also: I notice lots of tiny snails in the back/side walls of the tank. I have no plants in this aquarium. I used to love to give my fish a bunch of anacharis from time to time but suspected they became ill after the addition of some about a year or so ago (and I rinsed the plant well).
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Lily
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Post by Lily on Nov 2, 2017 16:54:03 GMT -5
Hi--
Just saw what appeared to be a comical post on FB re: the uselessness of API test kits.
I need to ask, because that was the only brand available in the store today for checking ammonia: Does Every API product (test kits included) seem to be not reliable???
If not, then I will not even use this kit tonight, and return it tomorrow! The other two API products I bought the other day didn't seem to make much (if any) difference in the test strip findings.
The water is beginning to clear in the tank (after the addition of that alkaline buffer). I can see Crushy lying in the back, center, but the water still isn't clear enough to where I can see if he is still alive. He somehow moved from the rear left side of the tank to the rear center... I feel so bad for this poor fish; he's been through so much.
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Post by Carl on Nov 3, 2017 9:30:12 GMT -5
Lily; I see lots of inexperienced persons trashing API test kits. The facts are these are certainly not of scientific accuracy, however in 1000s of uses they ARE IN FACT accurate enough for what we are using these for in our aquarium keeping endeavors. Please read this article about aquarium test kits: www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2007/02/aquarium-test-kits.htmlAny time adding a buffer causes a cloud that last more than a few minutes, this indicates a chemistry imbalance in the aquarium water. What is your water source, do you have a home water softener? As for eating, a mature fish can easily go for well over a week (depending upon fat reserves) Carl
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Lily
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Post by Lily on Nov 3, 2017 11:34:03 GMT -5
Thank you for responding. There is no home water softener.
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Post by Carl on Nov 3, 2017 13:18:44 GMT -5
Thank you for responding. There is no home water softener. OK, I asked because this is a common cause for adding a buffer resulting in a "milky" aquarium. Either way, something must have been off that was resisting the buffer mixing into the water. Carl
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Lily
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Post by Lily on Nov 3, 2017 13:59:53 GMT -5
I just finished checking the Ammonia NH3/NH+4, and it appears to be at 0ppm (mg/L). I even took the test tube outside (cloudy day and dark in the house); tried and tried but didn't seem to see any green in the reading, just appeared yellow.
Crushy's still laying on the floor of the tank, breathing, but seems slower (though it does change). The water looks crystal clear now. I think his mouth isn't opening now, or at least not as much. :-( Not sure if I mentioned before, but for days now we sometimes see his body suddenly twitch; looks as if he might be trying to get up when he does that. I don't know if it's a seizure sort of thing or what. Do you know?
Do I still need SeaChem Stability at this point, if I'm getting a negative on ammonia?
Thanks
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Nov 4, 2017 12:25:49 GMT -5
Seems like you might have been going through a cycle. I would just keep an eye on it and still use prime and if need be stability. Once the water is stable including KH I think the only thing you can do is monitor the fish since we don't know what's wrong. I would just make small changes to water chemistry for now and keep it stable.
Still use the wonder shell and consider the medicated as a just in case. But once the water is stable.
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Lily
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Post by Lily on Nov 4, 2017 14:24:19 GMT -5
Thank you, Devon. I just wanted to add a couple of observations. Crushy is still lying in the same spot (center rear of aquarium). I do see his eye move (though he's got that cloudy covering and must be blind) and occasional possible attempts to get up. I'm noticing that his body seems to be looking darker in a couple of areas; mainly near his gill, and near his tail. Almost a slightly bruised, bluish/purplish appearance. Does this mean he is dying, that there's something internal going amiss, or could that be happening because he has been so sedentary for a week now?
I also wanted to add that today, because the pH seemed to be holding at 7.0, I added the Alkaline buffer this morning, and there was absolutely no cloudiness afterward. The tank water looks beautiful. I tested it today and it's holding steady with the numbers I gave you yesterday...Though it appears that the KH is a little lower...I don't have the chart in front of me, but I believe the reading was appearing to be somewhere higher than 40 but not quite 80...
Thank you and Carl so very much for your help. Even if Crushy doesn't survive, I still feel good knowing that I've done what I can to get the parameters where they are supposed to be. I hope that somehow he can feel that difference.
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Lily
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Post by Lily on Nov 4, 2017 14:26:01 GMT -5
P.S. To clarify above, the pH was reading closer to 7.5 yesterday and appeared to have dropped to 7.0, therefore I added the Alkaline Buffer again this morning.
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Post by Carl on Nov 5, 2017 10:39:55 GMT -5
Thank you and Carl so very much for your help. Even if Crushy doesn't survive, I still feel good knowing that I've done what I can to get the parameters where they are supposed to be. I hope that somehow he can feel that difference. You're welcome! Sometimes you can only do your best, as with any living creature, there is always going to be the time nothing will stop him/her from passing. This said, I've also been witness many times to fish making miraculous turn around by only improving all water parameters, including lowering oxidative stress. Carl
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Lily
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Post by Lily on Nov 6, 2017 11:41:23 GMT -5
Sure am hoping for a miracle! I wanted to mention that the last couple of days when I've tested the water (in the morning when i get up and prior to adding any Buffer), the KH and the pH read lower. Perhaps I was taking a reading too soon after adding the buffer the first couple of days, and so the reading was not as accurate..?
The KH tends to read closer to 40--is that acceptable? And the pH seems to want to stay around 7.0
How long should I wait afterwards after adding any water treatment (specifically Alkaline buffer) to use the test strips?
Also, I wanted to mention that it looks like the Nitrite is at 0, but Nitrate around 40-50 (not quite 60 but nearing). Is that safe? Thank you.
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