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Post by devonjohnsgard on Oct 10, 2017 12:02:40 GMT -5
Can you have a shorter light cycle, so you don't have to use the Algone or Chemi-Pure? They are not meant for on going treatments.
Maybe, since the fish have been struggling with disease, this isn't the best time to fully switch up their diet. He may be low on energy. I can't remember what temp your tank is at, but the AAP food is a warmer fish diet, cooler blooded fish need to be feed more. I'm thinking how when we're sick, we're suppose to stay well nourished.
Need to get to a point where there's not maybe adjustments being made, so there's a good balance again.
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Post by redright28 on Oct 10, 2017 14:50:49 GMT -5
Thanks, Devon. I have an Satellite LED+ light. It is on a timer -- kicks on at 12:30 PM and kicks off at 9:00 PM.
Tank temperature runs between 73 - 74.5 degrees typically.
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Oct 10, 2017 16:54:47 GMT -5
Ya LEDs. If you don't have something using all that light, it can give you algae. Cutting it down to like 5 hours or less intensity.
That's a decent temp. You still want to account that they are getting less energy than what they are used too.
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Post by redright28 on Oct 10, 2017 20:25:57 GMT -5
Thanks, I will try cutting back a few hours and avoid using the brighter settings.
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Post by redright28 on Oct 12, 2017 9:30:32 GMT -5
The small Oranda is spending more time resting in the bottom corner of tank. I'd say he went from 15-20% of the time to about 30-35% of the time. When he is not there he behaves normally. He seems to become more active around feeding time.
Again, he started doing this shortly after my last water change (see original email). Perhaps he got stressed and it caused him to get sick? Is it possible the used Chemi-Pure filter is releasing elements it previously filtered or the Algone filter is causing an issue? The CP filter only has about 2 months of usage, but it was removed several times from the canister when I administered medication.
I am doing my routine water change tomorrow, and will use regular tap water rather than the RO water I used for the last two water changes. The tap water is good (no chlorine or ammonia, GH-280-300, KH-70, pH 7.5). I just add a little alkaline buffer and Prime. I am also thinking about removing the CP and algone filter.
What do you recommend at this time?
Thanks, Greg
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Oct 12, 2017 11:55:30 GMT -5
The small Oranda is spending more time resting in the bottom corner of tank. I'd say he went from 15-20% of the time to about 30-35% of the time. When he is not there he behaves normally. He seems to become more active around feeding time. Again, he started doing this shortly after my last water change (see original email). Perhaps he got stressed and it caused him to get sick? Is it possible the used Chemi-Pure filter is releasing elements it previously filtered or the Algone filter is causing an issue? The CP filter only has about 2 months of usage, but it was removed several times from the canister when I administered medication. I am doing my routine water change tomorrow, and will use regular tap water rather than the RO water I used for the last two water changes. The tap water is good (no chlorine or ammonia, GH-280-300, KH-70, pH 7.5). I just add a little alkaline buffer and Prime. I am also thinking about removing the CP and algone filter. What do you recommend at this time? Thanks, Greg Hard to say. It does sound like he's sick and I can't say for sure what the cause has been, because there has been a handful of things changed in the tank. I would just try to get to regular maintenance again, to the point where things are changing. Monitor the fish during the process.
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Post by Carl on Oct 12, 2017 15:05:54 GMT -5
Does this fish struggle when it swims?
I doubt the Algone is causing any negative issues, at worst it is doing nothing.
As for the Chemi-Pure, any product that absorbs has the ability under certain conditions to release these bound chemicals/elements. Based on your parameters though, I doubt this is happening. At worst, the CP is performing too much oxidation
I believe you are using a Regular Wonder Shell,; is it dissolving faster than normal or leaving a pile of dust? What I am getting at is if the WS is "working overtime" as per oxidizers or any mineral Anions present in the water
Carl
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Post by redright28 on Oct 13, 2017 23:01:04 GMT -5
He seems to be swimming normally and defineltey becomes more active when it is feeding time, as I feed them around the same times daily. When he is not "resting" he seems okay. He does turn and maneuver differently from my other fish because of his body type, but I noticed other similar sized Oranda's at my local fish store swim similarly. He does not look bloated, and no obvious swim bladder issues. He can rise and lower quickly. I am concerned he may have consumed some bacteria from the substrate, as he likes to graze a lot. What type of bacteria infection would he be more likely to have aquired if it was caused from decaying food or feces down in the substrate? Remember, he began doing this a week ago, within 60 minutes of my last water change. Perhaps stress caused him to become ill? I do use a Wonder Shell and Gold Trace when possible in between water changes, but I need to watch my GH levels, as both can raise my levels by 50-70 points in a week. I like to baseline my GH at around 300 and bring it up no higher than 350-370. When it does rise to 370, I need to do a 20% water change using RO water with a GH of about 100 to lower the tank GH back close to 300-320.
Typically a shell will last a while -- around two weeks or so.
My issue is Redox (300) and RH (31-32).....I am unable to lower these. Two RO based water changes has not helped, and I do not know what else to try. Removing the CP filter seems to lower the Redox to about 285. I going to try and order the UVC sterilizer next week. Any idea how much it will help reduce my Redox?
Any advice on reducing the Redox to the recommended level (under 125mv)? I read everything I could find on ORP/Redox.
Thanks, Greg
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Oct 14, 2017 12:48:45 GMT -5
What type of bacteria infection would he be more likely to have aquired if it was caused from decaying food or feces down in the substrate? Remember, he began doing this a week ago, within 60 minutes of my last water change. Perhaps stress caused him to become ill? It most likely would be Ameromonas bacteria. My issue is Redox (300) and RH (31-32).....I am unable to lower these. Two RO based water changes has not helped, and I do not know what else to try. Removing the CP filter seems to lower the Redox to about 285. I going to try and order the UVC sterilizer next week. Any idea how much it will help reduce my Redox? I would expect about a 10-20 drop in ORP. It's more a stabilizer of it not increasing that really reducing, but there is some reduction. And it can change depending on many factors. Like a reading right out of the tap, then a sterilizer would should like a 100 point drop. Here's some experiments we did watching ORP and sterilization. Broken Aquarium- Sick Fish
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Post by Carl on Oct 16, 2017 9:06:40 GMT -5
What a UV does more than anything is lower oxidizers in the water. If a lot are present, you will see a drop in ORP, if not the UV will make less difference.
As for the actual ORP numbers, I do not advice chasing these or being overly concerned (these are more for information), I believe the rH number is a more important number to go after.
Definitely removing the CP filter was a good idea.
What is your pH?
Carl
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Post by redright28 on Oct 17, 2017 10:33:09 GMT -5
pH runs between 7.6 and 7.7. Fish seems to be spending less time on the bottom. Interestingly enough, he picks the same exact spot/corner to rest. Hopefully, he will work through this soon.
I will say he has noticeably grown since August when I first reached out to you, and he looks quite healthy -- as well as the others.
Unfortunately, I may have to continue with CP Elite filtration, as it seems to help reduce brown algae growth. I have a Satellite LED+ light on about 8 hours a day at a modest setting, but I have a tall artificial plant that is close to the light. Algae growth seems to start here. I am wondering if removing the plant will help too.
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Post by Carl on Oct 18, 2017 13:04:58 GMT -5
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Post by redright28 on Dec 5, 2017 11:45:10 GMT -5
Hello, looking for feedback on how I should proceed....
Since my last post, my oranda has become a little more lethargic and dormant. He has a great appetite and for the casual observer would probably think there is nothing wrong with him; however, he spends more time in his isolated spot in the corner, and I noticed he does not swim "horizontally" much. He spends most of the time poking through the gravel. That said, he looks great, grown noticeably since August, and seems to control his vertical buoyancy very well. He just seems to spend alot of time swimming with his nose pointed at a downward 45 degree angle. I noticed orandas in general have a tendency to swim "vertically" more so than other fish, but this little guy just doesn't seem right. I suspect he may have an issue with his kidney that is causing this behavior. Basically he is showing slight issues with his swim bladder.
ODDLY enough, my black moors has begun to spend some time laying directly next to him when the oranda does lie in the corner. The moors had spent alot of time in the same corner earlier this year, but stopped doing so up until recently. He looks great and gets around the tank with no issues.
Food: still feeding them 3 meals per day (1-2 minutes each meal) using recommended food.......95% sure not overfeeding them. Water Paremeters: ph-7.7.....GH-280-330.....KH-110-140, no ammonia, nitrate or nitrite issues. Redox: still high at 300. Tank has no organic life other than the fish, no filtration other than mechanical and bio filters. Water changes every 7-12 days with gravel vacuum. Tank is clean and consists mainly of RO treated water. I treat new RO water to 7.4 ph, 180-190 GH, and 140 Kh using Seachem acid, alkaine buffers and Replenish. I use Seachem Gold Trace and wonder shells to maintain a tank GH between 280-320. Tank decorations: Plastic plants, and several ornaments.
I don't think the issue is related to internal bacteria, but it is possible. I am very hesitant to medicate, as this could do more harm to the kidney if the issue is not bacteria related.
I gave him a methylene blue, aquarium salt bath on Saturday and on Sunday. 1 gallon of water, 20 drops of MB, and 1/4 tsp of salt for 30 minutes. He showed noticeable improvement for about 24 hours after each bath, as he was more active and seemed to swim better. In addition, I treated the tank with Prime (1ml per 10 gallons) daily from Friday through Saturday to lower the redox. This brought the redox down to 220, but bounced back to 300 24 hours later.
How often can a MB bath be administered, and does the bath have any negative side affects? Assuming he has a weak/diseased kindey, what can I do to help him?
What are your recommendations?
As always...thank you very much! Greg
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Dec 5, 2017 13:50:45 GMT -5
Sounds like you're doing a lot for this fish! and keeping good track of what's going on.
Did you ever preform baths 2x a day for 7-10 days in a row? Might be worth a try and is what is suggested from the beginning. I wouldn't go through a whole tank treatment again just yet for the reasons you said.
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Post by Carl on Dec 5, 2017 17:18:56 GMT -5
Sounds like you're doing a lot for this fish! and keeping good track of what's going on. Did you ever preform baths 2x a day for 7-10 days in a row? Might be worth a try and is what is suggested from the beginning. I wouldn't go through a whole tank treatment again just yet for the reasons you said. I agree. Maybe add Epsom salts to the bath too as well as maybe some Neomycin/Metronidazole Please note that often once a fish experiences swim bladder and similar osmoregulation issues, they often do not fully recover from my experience Back to your ORP, using the rH formula in our Redox article, this is the better way to look at Redox. Assuming a correct pH & ORP reading, your rH is just over 31 (with 23-28 the number to shoot for) Are you using level one Sterilization? I believe you are using Wonder Shells, but you might increase the "dosage" Carl
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Post by redright28 on Dec 5, 2017 19:30:50 GMT -5
Thank you both for your replies.
I have yet to purchase a sterilizer, as I have been dealing with other expenses and now with Christmas approaching, I may have to wait until after the holidays. I have been using Wonder Shells where needed to maintain a proper GH level. I usually use a 10-12 gram block, and this will last a while.
Curious, is there any harm or side affects to giving a healthy fish a 30 minute MB bath w/ salt -- including epsom salt?
Is there a significant advantage to applying two baths per day versus one bath? I'm concerned with giving him two daily baths, as the additional bath increases the chance of damaging his slime coat or fins while getting to and from the bath.
Also, if I were to add Neomycin/Metronidazole to his bath, how much should I add for a 1 gallon bath?
There is a chance that he will live a long life as is. To your point Carl, perhaps he is just dealing with previous damage that is not life threatening -- hopefully.
The last thing I want to do is administer medication or treatment that may cause more harm than good.
I appreciate your help.
Greg
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Post by Carl on Dec 6, 2017 12:41:56 GMT -5
Thank you both for your replies. I have yet to purchase a sterilizer, as I have been dealing with other expenses and now with Christmas approaching, I may have to wait until after the holidays. I have been using Wonder Shells where needed to maintain a proper GH level. I usually use a 10-12 gram block, and this will last a while. When you can afford a good UV, I would suggest it, as a true UV sterilizer not only controls pathogens in the water, it also removes Redox affecting oxidizers in the water column The use of Epsom salts should improve the osmoregulation benefits of a fish bath (I generally would go with 20 minutes for this combination) As for two daily baths, the bigger danger is the stress of moving the fish back & forth. My rule of thumb is if the fish is not showing too much stress from movement and the fish is also quite ill, I would go with twice per day. Otherwise once per day One gallon is difficult to measure, but since it is one measure per 10 gallons, and since double dose is safe for a 20-30 minute bath, I would go with 1/5 measure Resource: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Seachem.htmlThis is a good point, whereby water parameters & diet should always be the starting point. While there is not black & white answer to your question other than my above statement, I certainly would not continue on endless cycles of treatments, including baths Carl
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Post by redright28 on Dec 11, 2017 11:55:40 GMT -5
After giving the Oranda another MB bath last Wednesday, I did not notice any change so I have not attempted another bath. Like I had mentioned, my black moors also began sitting at the bottom of the tank a few weeks back. He had been doing this for several months at the beginning of the year, but stopped doing so for a while. He likes to sit right next to my oranda.
They do not no do this all the time, and they become pretty active around feeding time. They both look good, and I am beginning to think the oranda's swimming pattern is normal than a swim bladder issue, as he loves to poke through the gravel and seems to move around without an issue when he wants to.
Their condition is either: 1) They will live for awhile: normal behavior and they like to rest at the bottom of the tank...possibly some intimidation to the two larger fish, or possibly a result of some internal damage that has taken away some of their energy or normal activity. 2) They will pass: signs of untreatable internal damage that will continue to worsen resulting in their deaths. 3) Internal bacteria infection: I don't think is the case, as there are no other signs towards an infection. I'm holding off on medication unless their condition worsens or other signs appear.
Carl, leveraging your goldfish experience, how likely is scenario #1? Keep in mind, diet is good and water parameters are all in normal range for goldfish. As a matter of fact current nitrates are at a very low level (10-20).
Thank you, Greg
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Dec 11, 2017 13:31:05 GMT -5
After giving the Oranda another MB bath last Wednesday, I did not notice any change so I have not attempted another bath. Like I had mentioned, my black moors also began sitting at the bottom of the tank a few weeks back. He had been doing this for several months at the beginning of the year, but stopped doing so for a while. He likes to sit right next to my oranda. They do not no do this all the time, and they become pretty active around feeding time. They both look good, and I am beginning to think the oranda's swimming pattern is normal than a swim bladder issue, as he loves to poke through the gravel and seems to move around without an issue when he wants to. Their condition is either: 1) They will live for awhile: normal behavior and they like to rest at the bottom of the tank...possibly some intimidation to the two larger fish, or possibly a result of some internal damage that has taken away some of their energy or normal activity. 2) They will pass: signs of untreatable internal damage that will continue to worsen resulting in their deaths. 3) Internal bacteria infection: I don't think is the case, as there are no other signs towards an infection. I'm holding off on medication unless their condition worsens or other signs appear. Carl, leveraging your goldfish experience, how likely is scenario #1? Keep in mind, diet is good and water parameters are all in normal range for goldfish. As a matter of fact current nitrates are at a very low level (10-20). Thank you, Greg Great points and you are certainly trying what you can. It's hard to determine if the bath treatments should continue, but my rule of thumb is if I'm treating for bacterial infections, I do it for 7-10 days to do a full treatment regardless. I do have fish that will sit, because that's where they make their "spot". I'm hoping for #1. And I guess if there was some damage, the damage has been done.
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Post by Carl on Dec 11, 2017 13:37:57 GMT -5
Scenario #1 is the most likely one from my experience.
As for baths, these are most effective when done at least daily. Sporatic baths are generally less effective, but then based on scenario #1, discontinuing is probably best for now
Carl
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