Post by redright28 on Aug 29, 2017 16:47:29 GMT -5
I am attaching a string of conversations with the nice folks at AAP in attempt to get guidance on how I should proceed with the issues I am having. The last email dated today is regarding my Black Moors. Al other emails pertain to my small Oranda which is doing better now.
Should I try feeding them SeaChem's Metrondizole/Focus mix (with food and garlic guard) for a few days and dose the tank with PraziPro again? Any advice/direction is GREATLY appreciated. I lost four goldfish in the last 6 months due to poor water conditions (low GH & KH, drop in pH, ammonia spike), and I am doing everything I can to help the four fish that I have. I just don't want to risk over medicating them.
Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2017 4:14 PM
Greg,
It just appears the fish needs time to pass more parasites. Looks like all fish in the tank were or might be effected. I would continue a internal treatment and tank treatment of PraziPro. It's a genital, but effective treatment, but usually takes more than one treatment.
Everything Aquatic
Thanks,
Devon
Sent: Tue, Aug 29, 2017 at 1:00 PM
AAP,
Good news – the Oranda appears to be doing well. Detritus looks good and has a very good appetite.
Bad news – my Black Moors appears to have an issue now.
I’ve attached two pictures: One was taken yesterday which shows a small piece of detritus. Fish was fed a diet of peas during the last three days, because I was concerned they ate too much while I was away. Also, the other fish had 1-3” long thick brown detritus. So I fasted them from Saturday morning to Sunday night. Fed them peas, Sunday night, and Monday morning and evening.
The other picture was just taken after feeding them two small meals this morning and afternoon. You’ll see a loooong white trail of detritus. I’m totally dejected. If you recall I had issues with GH due to my house water-softener, but I addressed that during the last month and now my GH is at 300 using regular water. All other parameters are very good.
I’m at a loss…..I treated the take with API Milafix and Primfix late July, fed the fish a diet of Kannaplex/Focus for six days in early August and finally PraziPro last week before I left on vacation. All attempts to address various issues caused from poor osmoregulation from the water softener.
Do you think this is a sign of an internal infection/parasite or something else like over feeding? Should I just continue to feed the fish normally and monitor him? He use to sit on the bottom of the tank 60% of the time between April-July, but never showed signs of distress or illness. Since I got the water conditioned corrected, he no longer sits on the bottom.
I just don’t what to do. I’m really dejected.
Greg
Sent: Monday, August 28, 2017 1:09 PM
Greg,
Yes, Wonder Shells can and do increase GH and no a higher GH does not cause digestion issues as per our articles:
From our Aquarium Chemistry Article
Although many aquarists worry about “too high GH” (based on respiration problems), this is based on long ago proven false myths.
In reality, freshwater generally would take a GH of over 500 ppm to cause this problem.
More importantly as to respiration, the surface epithelia of gills and body surfaces are protected from direct interaction with the environment by mucous and intercellular junctions.
Fish mucous has been postulated to have calcium binding properties.
Mucous is a glycoprotein and could serve as a calcium chelating agent retarding ion loss from epithelial cells as a charged surface coat or barrier and thus is dependent on calcium for normal function.
Intercellular junctions are specialized areas of attachment between epithelial cells preventing the loss of ions and fluids from the membrane which bathes and surrounds the cells beneath.
Reference: MEMBRANE PERMEABILITY, CALCIUM, AND OSMOTIC PRESSURE
In reality when GH is truly "too high" one is providing the opposite positive effect on respiration where by we are providing too much Redox Reduction thus blocking adequate respiration. In other words we need to understand more about aquarium Redox balance whereby too much oxidation or too much reduction can be a problem. Unfortunately most aquarium keepers tend to err on the side of too much oxidation and short change their aquarium inhabitants on the importance of reduction via mineral Cations.
GH is an area of aquarium chemistry where there is a lot of misunderstanding or simply down right wrong advice.
I have received many calls, emails, etc. over the years asking what do about their so-called high GH. Often this GH turns out to be only around 200-300 ppm which is fine for most fish (low for African Cichlids, livebearers and even goldfish do better at higher GH).
This concern is based on old assumptions of respiration in fish, as well as lack of understanding of the importance of positive Calcium ions (as well as Magnesium & Potassium) in the regulation of MANY bio processes in fish including healing, heart function, and regulation of osmotic functions.
As noted earlier, GH even plays a role in pH control in planted aquariums. Similar processes are also at work in marine aquariums, which is why the popularity of Kalkwasser, although GH is not referred to in Marine Aquariums, rather separate Calcium and other tests are performed.
I recommend reading the section later in this article; “Calcium Carbonate”, which explains more about Calcium as well as many of the outside links/references.
This misunderstanding of GH also flies in the face of the best research to date about the importance of Redox in aquarium health and since Calcium and Magnesium play a role in a balanced Redox (as can UVC Sterilization), understanding that you may have a high GH, YET your aquariums Calcium or other Redox reducers may have given up all possible positive charges (cations) to cells (or other bio processes) under oxidation.
It is for this reason, then, that calcium and magnesium supplies MUST be constantly renewed; without this “fresh” calcium, etc. your Redox balance and of course fish (or other aquatic inhabitants such as coral, frogs, shrimp) will suffer!
Yes, Wonder Shells can and do increase GH and no a higher GH does not cause digestion issues as per our articles:
From our Aquarium Chemistry Article
Although many aquarists worry about “too high GH” (based on respiration problems), this is based on long ago proven false myths.
In reality, freshwater generally would take a GH of over 500 ppm to cause this problem.
More importantly as to respiration, the surface epithelia of gills and body surfaces are protected from direct interaction with the environment by mucous and intercellular junctions.
Fish mucous has been postulated to have calcium binding properties.
Mucous is a glycoprotein and could serve as a calcium chelating agent retarding ion loss from epithelial cells as a charged surface coat or barrier and thus is dependent on calcium for normal function.
Intercellular junctions are specialized areas of attachment between epithelial cells preventing the loss of ions and fluids from the membrane which bathes and surrounds the cells beneath.
Reference: MEMBRANE PERMEABILITY, CALCIUM, AND OSMOTIC PRESSURE
In reality when GH is truly "too high" one is providing the opposite positive effect on respiration where by we are providing too much Redox Reduction thus blocking adequate respiration. In other words we need to understand more about aquarium Redox balance whereby too much oxidation or too much reduction can be a problem. Unfortunately most aquarium keepers tend to err on the side of too much oxidation and short change their aquarium inhabitants on the importance of reduction via mineral Cations.
GH is an area of aquarium chemistry where there is a lot of misunderstanding or simply down right wrong advice.
I have received many calls, emails, etc. over the years asking what do about their so-called high GH. Often this GH turns out to be only around 200-300 ppm which is fine for most fish (low for African Cichlids, livebearers and even goldfish do better at higher GH).
This concern is based on old assumptions of respiration in fish, as well as lack of understanding of the importance of positive Calcium ions (as well as Magnesium & Potassium) in the regulation of MANY bio processes in fish including healing, heart function, and regulation of osmotic functions.
As noted earlier, GH even plays a role in pH control in planted aquariums. Similar processes are also at work in marine aquariums, which is why the popularity of Kalkwasser, although GH is not referred to in Marine Aquariums, rather separate Calcium and other tests are performed.
I recommend reading the section later in this article; “Calcium Carbonate”, which explains more about Calcium as well as many of the outside links/references.
This misunderstanding of GH also flies in the face of the best research to date about the importance of Redox in aquarium health and since Calcium and Magnesium play a role in a balanced Redox (as can UVC Sterilization), understanding that you may have a high GH, YET your aquariums Calcium or other Redox reducers may have given up all possible positive charges (cations) to cells (or other bio processes) under oxidation.
It is for this reason, then, that calcium and magnesium supplies MUST be constantly renewed; without this “fresh” calcium, etc. your Redox balance and of course fish (or other aquatic inhabitants such as coral, frogs, shrimp) will suffer!
Sent: On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at 10:02 AM
AAP,
Hello, just wanted to give you an update…
Back from vacation and the fish appear to be doing well. Before I left, my GH was at 225 (API), KH was at 132 (API), and Ph at 7.6-7.7 (meter).
When I returned a week later, my GH was at 376 (API), KH at 179 (API), and Ph at 7.6-7.7 (meter). Although these numbers skyrocketed, I was not too concerned as they fall within safe parameters for goldfish.
There are no other organic life within the 90 gallon tank, and the following are the only things I did before I left:
- Added PraziPro (recommended dosage)
- Added two Wonder shells (one giant and one super size)
- Turned off UV sanitizer and removed ChemiPure chemical filters)
I attributed the spike to the wonder shells, since they release calcium and magnesium. Would you agree?
Also, I performed a water change and brought the GH down to 300, where I plan on keeping the tank. The fish appear to be taking a long time to pass their detritus, and a few times they had long and thick pieces. I figured they may have been overfed while I was away, so I fasted them for 1.5 days and are feeding them peas today. Would a large spike in GH cause digestion issues?
Thank you,
Greg
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2017 11:08 PM
Greg,
The airpump should remain on.
Devon
Sent: On Aug 17, 2017 3:54 PM
AAP,
One last question….should I turn off my air pump/air stone? I noticed the air stone is really putting out a lot of air bubbles on the surface since putting the PraziPro in the water.
Thank you,
Greg
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2017 5:12 PM
Greg,
There's a handful of ways a parasite could be introduced and it comes down to immunity if the fish can resist it.
Devon
Sent: On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 2:09 PM
AAP,
Wouldn't a parasite have to be introduced to a closed tank? There are four fish in my tank. Two have been with me for over 3 years, two I got in February -- including the Oranda. The Oranda is the only one in question. The other three have normal stool. Wouldn't the others catch a parasite if the Oranda had them? Nothing else entered the tank...no live plants either. Can parasites originate from poor water or without an external source?
I'm thinking he may just need time to recover from poor water conditions, or the damage is too far gone.
Thanks again for everything. I really do appreciate it.
Greg
Date: Thu, August 17, 2017 3:19 PM -0400
Greg,
It really varies depending on how soft the water and the flow. They usually last about a week or two and you replace them on the next water change when that may be. Like once a month.
Devon
Sent: On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 12:07 PM
AAP,
How long do Wonder Shells typically last in a well-balanced freshwater aquarium? The quicker they dissolve, the higher the oxidizing levels, correct?
Thank you,
Greg
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2017 1:54 PM
Hi Greg,
Yes it is safe to use epson salt, but I would suggest 30 minutes instead of the 30-60 with methylene blue and prazipro only.
Yes, it is safe to treat your other fish too, but what would be best is to use a small quarantine tank to treat the sick fish.
Thanks, Steven.
Sent: On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 10:06 AM
AAP,
A few question regarding the information in link…
Is it safe to add Methylene Blue and epsom salt to bath to the PraziPro bath?
With products such as PraziPro, the best method of delivery whether for a small aquarium fish or a large pond koi is via a bath.
This bath should be 30-60 minutes and used in an appropriate sized container for the fish involved, such as a 5 gallon bucket or even larger Rubbermade container for a large Koi.
Is it safe to apply PraziPro to tank with healthy goldfish? Since I will be away for a week, I will not be able to give him a bath after today.
However if the infestation is systemic, "in tank" use is suggested (or in combination with a bath).
Thank you,
Greg
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2017 12:31 PM
Greg,
Sorry, I was incorrect on that last answer. I was thinking of a different medication. Here's how we recommend it.
PraziPro- Indepth
Devon
Sent: On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 9:27 AM
Greg,
We don't encourage it in a bath, we suggest the intake treatment with the bath separate.
Devon
Sent: On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 9:16 AM
AAP.
I plan on dosing the tank with PraziPro. Before doing so, I'd like to apply it to his methlyene/epsom salt bath. Is that safe?
Thank you.
Greg
Date: Thu, August 17, 2017 10:48 AM -0400
Greg.
It's a lighter option. Actually not as harsh as MetroPlex, but also only moderately effective for internal issues. Assuming the issue is parasites.
Devon
Sent: On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 5:59 AM
AAP,
I am thinking about trying the MetroPlex food mix to see how the Oranda does. If he does okay, I will have the house sitter feed on alternative days, with regular feedings in between.
Is Prazipro a better option – safer on internal organs? It contains Praziquantel which Devon initially recommended, and does not contain Metronidazole (Oranda did not seem to react well when fed food with MetroPlex).
Thank you….again.
Greg
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 7:53 PM
Greg,
Great news. Thanks for letting us know.
Devon
Sent: On Aug 16, 2017 4:42 PM
AAP,
After a slow start early this morning my Oranda became active again as the day progressed. To play it safe, I decided not to fee him today. I’ll will give them all two small feedings tomorrow.
Your products arrived around 5:00, thank you for such a quick turn-around, and I proceeded to give him a bath.
- 1 gallon tank water
- 20 drops Methylene Blue
- ¼ Epson Salt (Perfect since it does not contain Sodium)
He responded really well and left a few very small pieces of waste in the container that looked normal. I’ll probably give him one more bath tomorrow before heading out on Friday.
The Wonder Shells are in place and appear to be holding up well, a good sign that the sodium levels have dropped quite a bit after several weekly water changes without softened water. As a matter of fact, all my levels are now in the optimum range for goldfish – with exception of KH which is at 115. I’d like to get this up toward 140 for added stability, but my pH is currently 7.5. Nitrates are low, around 20.
Thanks again to everyone there for the help and guidance.
Greg
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 12:42 PM
Greg,
Sorry, I forgot to link you to our baths article. It explains how to do a bath. I would do the bath and get the fish in a separate established tank if possible for monitoring the detritus.
Aquarium Answers-Baths/Swabs
Devon
Sent: On Wed, Aug 16, 2017 at 9:38 AM
AAP,
It’s really difficult to determine if he is passing food because there are three other fish in there. To say that I have been keeping an eye on him is an understatement. I’ll continue to monitor.
He seems to be doing better now…more active. I will fast them today and try a light/medium meal tomorrow.
Do you suggest trying a Methylene Blue bath? I expect your shipmen today. If so, how often, what size container, and how much medication?
Thank you,
Greg
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 12:16 PM
Greg,
I'm having a hard time seeing yellowing on the fish, but you know your fish better than me. At this point, I'm just giving educated guesses, because I haven't see something wrong and just going off your description. I usually keep feeding if the fish is willing to eat and is passing the food. Passing the food is key as Goldfish are constant grazers and need to keep food moving through their digestive tract.
Devon
Sent: On Wed, Aug 16, 2017 at 6:19 AM
AAP,
Thank you, Devon. I have noticed a yellow tinge around his face and an yellow patch under his belly (see photo). I don’t know if the yellow patch was there prior (normal coloring), but I am concerned both may be signs of liver failure.
I’m sure the crappy water environment has wreaked havoc on his body. I am trying desperately to help him, but it may be too late.
I plan on fasting all the fish for today and probably tomorrow to give the sick fish time. I don’t think having him eat more food at this moment would be good for his liver and kidney. Do you agree that I should hold off until I leave Friday morning on feeding them? I plan on leaving regular food and peas soaked in Garlic Guard for the house sitter, having her feed them once daily.
Also, I expect to receive the Methylene Blue today. Do you suggest I try giving him MB bathes? If so, how often, size container, and how much medication?
Thank you very much!
Greg
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 8:55 AM
Greg,
If your concerned, the treatment should shop. Perhaps give the fish some time before the next treatment like after your time away and this will give some time for the immunity to build.
That was my concern was the immunity was damaged from the water softener. Many times, just getting the fish in proper water will build immunity back up and the fish can heal on its own without harder treatments.
Thanks,
Devon
Sent: On Aug 16, 2017 3:56 AM
AAP,
I mixed one scoop of Sea Chem’s MetraPlex and one scoop of Sea Chem’s Focus along with one tbsp of pellet food and garlic yesterday afternoon.
I fed to the fish and refrigerated the rest of the food in a cleaned prescription bottle.
Late last night I noticed the sick fish was spending a lot of time in the corner of the tank, poking around at the gravel. He did not seem right.
This morning is condition is the same. I am concerned the Metrondizole may have reacted poorly with his liver How should I proceed?
I am performing a 20% water change this morning.
Thank you,
Greg
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2017 3:53 PM
Greg,
Yes, I'm am just not certain that it's parasites by the picture or description. That's why I say if it is parasites, which you would know if the detritus is stringy.
Thanks,
Devon
Sent: On Tue, Aug 15, 2017 at 12:50 PM
AAP,
Thank you, Devon. Are you saying I should proceed with the Metroplex/Focus mix?
Greg
Date: Tue, August 15, 2017 3:26 PM -0400
Greg,
Seems like you would want to continue your treatment if the detritus is long and stringy. I think your medication choice is worth another try and if you don't see improvement you may have to consider something like Clout. I will resay though that it's difficult to have a successful treatment if the fish has osmotic damage from water issues and is just now adjusting to new water.
Devon
Sent: On Tue, Aug 15, 2017 at 11:38 AM, D'Amore, Gregory C <gregory.damore@pnc.com> wrote:
AAP,
I fed him last night at 9:00 PM, and he passed waste this morning at 11:00 AM. I don’t know if went in between, so I thought he may be constipated.
I don’t have PraziPro. How do you feel about a MetroPlex/Focus treatment – 1 tbsp of pellet food, 1 scoop of Metroplex, 1 scoop of Focus mixed with GarliGuard? This worked well when my common had a parasite.
I can treat the fish (there are three other goldfish in tank, all with healthy stools) today through Friday, then have the house sitter administer a light-normal diet until I return on 8/25. I would refrigerate the remaining medicated food. Your thoughts?
Thank you.
Greg
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2017 2:17 PM
Greg,
If the detritus is clear or brown strings, it's usually a parasite.
If the fish is eating, how do you know the fish is constipated?
Yes, I agree, the fish shouldn't be in salt baths.
If it's parasites, I would treat with something like PraziPro and try another round of medicated food.
Devon
Sent: On Tue, Aug 15, 2017 at 11:09 AM
AAP,
Thanks, Devon. Does his detritus look like there may be parasites? I will put the wonder shells into the water when they arrive, and will soak their food in Vita-Chem (vitamin solution).
I need to decide if I should have the house sitter administer food/medicine to fight parasites while I am away, or feed the fish with a light-normal diet with fiber/peas until I return.
Also, do you agree that I should avoid a “salt bath” due to the amount of sodium exposure from the water softener? Like your support previously suggested, perhaps a methylene bath without salt?
Thank you so much!
Greg
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2017 1:50 PM
Greg,
We handle all product related questions and treatment questions through email, as we need written records so all our tech support can help and know what was said. We also need written records if there's a mix-up to know what was said.
At this point, I think you need to get regular maintenance with the wonder shell and food. You can try another round of antibiotic food. If the fish is still eating, that's a good thing. If the detritus looks like there might be internal parasites, you could try a treatment like PraziPro.
Devon
Sent: On Tue, Aug 15, 2017 at 10:24 AM
AAP,
Devon, thank you. Do you folks have a technical support line I can call for advice on treatment? I didn’t want to call your office without checking first.
I would order the medicated wonder shells now, but I leave for vacation on Friday for a week. L As it is, I am scrambling to put together a treatment and feeding plan while I am away for my house sitter.
Greg
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2017 12:03 PM
Greg,
It's hard to say at this point. You need the goods you purchased from us and start with the constant dissolving shell. A medicated shell could have been used, since we really don't know what's going on. If water is just now being corrected, the fish would be struggling from the prior time in the poor water. Water softeners are very hard on osmoregulation of fish,
At this point, I don't want to recommend medications as medications will not as effectively repair or help when there was a water quality issue. These need to be corrected long term for medications to be most effective. You're med feeding was a good idea. You could also think about gentle methylene blue baths for a while.
You might want to join our sponsored forum to ask for others help. Someone in the forum may have experienced this issue and could help more. Others would learn from your experience as well.
Everything Aquatic
Thanks,
Devon
On Tue, Aug 15, 2017 at 8:44 AM, D'Amore, Gregory C <gregory.damore@pnc.com> wrote:
AAP,
Please help…
I will follow up with phone call, but as you can see, my Oranda’s stool is not right. He last ate at 9:00 PM yesterday, and he just pooped. I am concerned he is either constipated, or has internal damage.
· I have fed the fish a healthy amount of peas during the last 72 hours, and plan on fasting them today.
· They also just came off a 6 day Kanamycin treatment (1 tbsp of 3mm pellet food with one scoop of Sea Chem Kanaplex and one scoop of Sea Chem Focus). I mixed with Garlic Guard & refrigerated the food during the 6 days. They ate about 80% of food – feeding once daily.
Brief history…
· I lost two fish to dropsy (February and two weeks ago)
· I believe cause of Dropsy was due to very low mineral intake, and poor Osmoregulation which led to kidney failure.
· The fish have been exposed to very low GH levels (30-50) and high sodium during the last 6 months, due to water source (water softener with sodium chloride).
· I began fixing the water quality several weeks ago. I am fortunate to have hard water, so I have been performing weekly 20% water changes bypassing my water softener. Water parameters are now looking good….
o GH: 160 (I am slowly increasing until I reach 200-300 level)
o KH: 100-120 (I am trying to get this between 120-180, ideally 140).
o pH: 7.5
o Nitrate: 10-20
o Nitrite & ammonia: 0
· I have been treating the tank every 3 days with Sea Chem Gold Trace in attempt to provide them minerals, and will do another weekly water change tomorrow which will help increase their GH level & mineral intake. Also plan on treating the tank with Wonder Shells and/or Sea Chem Replenish.
I was going to give him a salt bath on Sunday, but decided against it due to the high exposure to sodium during the past six months.
Thank you,
Greg
Should I try feeding them SeaChem's Metrondizole/Focus mix (with food and garlic guard) for a few days and dose the tank with PraziPro again? Any advice/direction is GREATLY appreciated. I lost four goldfish in the last 6 months due to poor water conditions (low GH & KH, drop in pH, ammonia spike), and I am doing everything I can to help the four fish that I have. I just don't want to risk over medicating them.
Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2017 4:14 PM
Greg,
It just appears the fish needs time to pass more parasites. Looks like all fish in the tank were or might be effected. I would continue a internal treatment and tank treatment of PraziPro. It's a genital, but effective treatment, but usually takes more than one treatment.
Everything Aquatic
Thanks,
Devon
Sent: Tue, Aug 29, 2017 at 1:00 PM
AAP,
Good news – the Oranda appears to be doing well. Detritus looks good and has a very good appetite.
Bad news – my Black Moors appears to have an issue now.
I’ve attached two pictures: One was taken yesterday which shows a small piece of detritus. Fish was fed a diet of peas during the last three days, because I was concerned they ate too much while I was away. Also, the other fish had 1-3” long thick brown detritus. So I fasted them from Saturday morning to Sunday night. Fed them peas, Sunday night, and Monday morning and evening.
The other picture was just taken after feeding them two small meals this morning and afternoon. You’ll see a loooong white trail of detritus. I’m totally dejected. If you recall I had issues with GH due to my house water-softener, but I addressed that during the last month and now my GH is at 300 using regular water. All other parameters are very good.
I’m at a loss…..I treated the take with API Milafix and Primfix late July, fed the fish a diet of Kannaplex/Focus for six days in early August and finally PraziPro last week before I left on vacation. All attempts to address various issues caused from poor osmoregulation from the water softener.
Do you think this is a sign of an internal infection/parasite or something else like over feeding? Should I just continue to feed the fish normally and monitor him? He use to sit on the bottom of the tank 60% of the time between April-July, but never showed signs of distress or illness. Since I got the water conditioned corrected, he no longer sits on the bottom.
I just don’t what to do. I’m really dejected.
Greg
Sent: Monday, August 28, 2017 1:09 PM
Greg,
Yes, Wonder Shells can and do increase GH and no a higher GH does not cause digestion issues as per our articles:
From our Aquarium Chemistry Article
Although many aquarists worry about “too high GH” (based on respiration problems), this is based on long ago proven false myths.
In reality, freshwater generally would take a GH of over 500 ppm to cause this problem.
More importantly as to respiration, the surface epithelia of gills and body surfaces are protected from direct interaction with the environment by mucous and intercellular junctions.
Fish mucous has been postulated to have calcium binding properties.
Mucous is a glycoprotein and could serve as a calcium chelating agent retarding ion loss from epithelial cells as a charged surface coat or barrier and thus is dependent on calcium for normal function.
Intercellular junctions are specialized areas of attachment between epithelial cells preventing the loss of ions and fluids from the membrane which bathes and surrounds the cells beneath.
Reference: MEMBRANE PERMEABILITY, CALCIUM, AND OSMOTIC PRESSURE
In reality when GH is truly "too high" one is providing the opposite positive effect on respiration where by we are providing too much Redox Reduction thus blocking adequate respiration. In other words we need to understand more about aquarium Redox balance whereby too much oxidation or too much reduction can be a problem. Unfortunately most aquarium keepers tend to err on the side of too much oxidation and short change their aquarium inhabitants on the importance of reduction via mineral Cations.
GH is an area of aquarium chemistry where there is a lot of misunderstanding or simply down right wrong advice.
I have received many calls, emails, etc. over the years asking what do about their so-called high GH. Often this GH turns out to be only around 200-300 ppm which is fine for most fish (low for African Cichlids, livebearers and even goldfish do better at higher GH).
This concern is based on old assumptions of respiration in fish, as well as lack of understanding of the importance of positive Calcium ions (as well as Magnesium & Potassium) in the regulation of MANY bio processes in fish including healing, heart function, and regulation of osmotic functions.
As noted earlier, GH even plays a role in pH control in planted aquariums. Similar processes are also at work in marine aquariums, which is why the popularity of Kalkwasser, although GH is not referred to in Marine Aquariums, rather separate Calcium and other tests are performed.
I recommend reading the section later in this article; “Calcium Carbonate”, which explains more about Calcium as well as many of the outside links/references.
This misunderstanding of GH also flies in the face of the best research to date about the importance of Redox in aquarium health and since Calcium and Magnesium play a role in a balanced Redox (as can UVC Sterilization), understanding that you may have a high GH, YET your aquariums Calcium or other Redox reducers may have given up all possible positive charges (cations) to cells (or other bio processes) under oxidation.
It is for this reason, then, that calcium and magnesium supplies MUST be constantly renewed; without this “fresh” calcium, etc. your Redox balance and of course fish (or other aquatic inhabitants such as coral, frogs, shrimp) will suffer!
Yes, Wonder Shells can and do increase GH and no a higher GH does not cause digestion issues as per our articles:
From our Aquarium Chemistry Article
Although many aquarists worry about “too high GH” (based on respiration problems), this is based on long ago proven false myths.
In reality, freshwater generally would take a GH of over 500 ppm to cause this problem.
More importantly as to respiration, the surface epithelia of gills and body surfaces are protected from direct interaction with the environment by mucous and intercellular junctions.
Fish mucous has been postulated to have calcium binding properties.
Mucous is a glycoprotein and could serve as a calcium chelating agent retarding ion loss from epithelial cells as a charged surface coat or barrier and thus is dependent on calcium for normal function.
Intercellular junctions are specialized areas of attachment between epithelial cells preventing the loss of ions and fluids from the membrane which bathes and surrounds the cells beneath.
Reference: MEMBRANE PERMEABILITY, CALCIUM, AND OSMOTIC PRESSURE
In reality when GH is truly "too high" one is providing the opposite positive effect on respiration where by we are providing too much Redox Reduction thus blocking adequate respiration. In other words we need to understand more about aquarium Redox balance whereby too much oxidation or too much reduction can be a problem. Unfortunately most aquarium keepers tend to err on the side of too much oxidation and short change their aquarium inhabitants on the importance of reduction via mineral Cations.
GH is an area of aquarium chemistry where there is a lot of misunderstanding or simply down right wrong advice.
I have received many calls, emails, etc. over the years asking what do about their so-called high GH. Often this GH turns out to be only around 200-300 ppm which is fine for most fish (low for African Cichlids, livebearers and even goldfish do better at higher GH).
This concern is based on old assumptions of respiration in fish, as well as lack of understanding of the importance of positive Calcium ions (as well as Magnesium & Potassium) in the regulation of MANY bio processes in fish including healing, heart function, and regulation of osmotic functions.
As noted earlier, GH even plays a role in pH control in planted aquariums. Similar processes are also at work in marine aquariums, which is why the popularity of Kalkwasser, although GH is not referred to in Marine Aquariums, rather separate Calcium and other tests are performed.
I recommend reading the section later in this article; “Calcium Carbonate”, which explains more about Calcium as well as many of the outside links/references.
This misunderstanding of GH also flies in the face of the best research to date about the importance of Redox in aquarium health and since Calcium and Magnesium play a role in a balanced Redox (as can UVC Sterilization), understanding that you may have a high GH, YET your aquariums Calcium or other Redox reducers may have given up all possible positive charges (cations) to cells (or other bio processes) under oxidation.
It is for this reason, then, that calcium and magnesium supplies MUST be constantly renewed; without this “fresh” calcium, etc. your Redox balance and of course fish (or other aquatic inhabitants such as coral, frogs, shrimp) will suffer!
Sent: On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at 10:02 AM
AAP,
Hello, just wanted to give you an update…
Back from vacation and the fish appear to be doing well. Before I left, my GH was at 225 (API), KH was at 132 (API), and Ph at 7.6-7.7 (meter).
When I returned a week later, my GH was at 376 (API), KH at 179 (API), and Ph at 7.6-7.7 (meter). Although these numbers skyrocketed, I was not too concerned as they fall within safe parameters for goldfish.
There are no other organic life within the 90 gallon tank, and the following are the only things I did before I left:
- Added PraziPro (recommended dosage)
- Added two Wonder shells (one giant and one super size)
- Turned off UV sanitizer and removed ChemiPure chemical filters)
I attributed the spike to the wonder shells, since they release calcium and magnesium. Would you agree?
Also, I performed a water change and brought the GH down to 300, where I plan on keeping the tank. The fish appear to be taking a long time to pass their detritus, and a few times they had long and thick pieces. I figured they may have been overfed while I was away, so I fasted them for 1.5 days and are feeding them peas today. Would a large spike in GH cause digestion issues?
Thank you,
Greg
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2017 11:08 PM
Greg,
The airpump should remain on.
Devon
Sent: On Aug 17, 2017 3:54 PM
AAP,
One last question….should I turn off my air pump/air stone? I noticed the air stone is really putting out a lot of air bubbles on the surface since putting the PraziPro in the water.
Thank you,
Greg
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2017 5:12 PM
Greg,
There's a handful of ways a parasite could be introduced and it comes down to immunity if the fish can resist it.
Devon
Sent: On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 2:09 PM
AAP,
Wouldn't a parasite have to be introduced to a closed tank? There are four fish in my tank. Two have been with me for over 3 years, two I got in February -- including the Oranda. The Oranda is the only one in question. The other three have normal stool. Wouldn't the others catch a parasite if the Oranda had them? Nothing else entered the tank...no live plants either. Can parasites originate from poor water or without an external source?
I'm thinking he may just need time to recover from poor water conditions, or the damage is too far gone.
Thanks again for everything. I really do appreciate it.
Greg
Date: Thu, August 17, 2017 3:19 PM -0400
Greg,
It really varies depending on how soft the water and the flow. They usually last about a week or two and you replace them on the next water change when that may be. Like once a month.
Devon
Sent: On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 12:07 PM
AAP,
How long do Wonder Shells typically last in a well-balanced freshwater aquarium? The quicker they dissolve, the higher the oxidizing levels, correct?
Thank you,
Greg
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2017 1:54 PM
Hi Greg,
Yes it is safe to use epson salt, but I would suggest 30 minutes instead of the 30-60 with methylene blue and prazipro only.
Yes, it is safe to treat your other fish too, but what would be best is to use a small quarantine tank to treat the sick fish.
Thanks, Steven.
Sent: On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 10:06 AM
AAP,
A few question regarding the information in link…
Is it safe to add Methylene Blue and epsom salt to bath to the PraziPro bath?
With products such as PraziPro, the best method of delivery whether for a small aquarium fish or a large pond koi is via a bath.
This bath should be 30-60 minutes and used in an appropriate sized container for the fish involved, such as a 5 gallon bucket or even larger Rubbermade container for a large Koi.
Is it safe to apply PraziPro to tank with healthy goldfish? Since I will be away for a week, I will not be able to give him a bath after today.
However if the infestation is systemic, "in tank" use is suggested (or in combination with a bath).
Thank you,
Greg
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2017 12:31 PM
Greg,
Sorry, I was incorrect on that last answer. I was thinking of a different medication. Here's how we recommend it.
PraziPro- Indepth
Devon
Sent: On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 9:27 AM
Greg,
We don't encourage it in a bath, we suggest the intake treatment with the bath separate.
Devon
Sent: On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 9:16 AM
AAP.
I plan on dosing the tank with PraziPro. Before doing so, I'd like to apply it to his methlyene/epsom salt bath. Is that safe?
Thank you.
Greg
Date: Thu, August 17, 2017 10:48 AM -0400
Greg.
It's a lighter option. Actually not as harsh as MetroPlex, but also only moderately effective for internal issues. Assuming the issue is parasites.
Devon
Sent: On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 5:59 AM
AAP,
I am thinking about trying the MetroPlex food mix to see how the Oranda does. If he does okay, I will have the house sitter feed on alternative days, with regular feedings in between.
Is Prazipro a better option – safer on internal organs? It contains Praziquantel which Devon initially recommended, and does not contain Metronidazole (Oranda did not seem to react well when fed food with MetroPlex).
Thank you….again.
Greg
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 7:53 PM
Greg,
Great news. Thanks for letting us know.
Devon
Sent: On Aug 16, 2017 4:42 PM
AAP,
After a slow start early this morning my Oranda became active again as the day progressed. To play it safe, I decided not to fee him today. I’ll will give them all two small feedings tomorrow.
Your products arrived around 5:00, thank you for such a quick turn-around, and I proceeded to give him a bath.
- 1 gallon tank water
- 20 drops Methylene Blue
- ¼ Epson Salt (Perfect since it does not contain Sodium)
He responded really well and left a few very small pieces of waste in the container that looked normal. I’ll probably give him one more bath tomorrow before heading out on Friday.
The Wonder Shells are in place and appear to be holding up well, a good sign that the sodium levels have dropped quite a bit after several weekly water changes without softened water. As a matter of fact, all my levels are now in the optimum range for goldfish – with exception of KH which is at 115. I’d like to get this up toward 140 for added stability, but my pH is currently 7.5. Nitrates are low, around 20.
Thanks again to everyone there for the help and guidance.
Greg
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 12:42 PM
Greg,
Sorry, I forgot to link you to our baths article. It explains how to do a bath. I would do the bath and get the fish in a separate established tank if possible for monitoring the detritus.
Aquarium Answers-Baths/Swabs
Devon
Sent: On Wed, Aug 16, 2017 at 9:38 AM
AAP,
It’s really difficult to determine if he is passing food because there are three other fish in there. To say that I have been keeping an eye on him is an understatement. I’ll continue to monitor.
He seems to be doing better now…more active. I will fast them today and try a light/medium meal tomorrow.
Do you suggest trying a Methylene Blue bath? I expect your shipmen today. If so, how often, what size container, and how much medication?
Thank you,
Greg
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 12:16 PM
Greg,
I'm having a hard time seeing yellowing on the fish, but you know your fish better than me. At this point, I'm just giving educated guesses, because I haven't see something wrong and just going off your description. I usually keep feeding if the fish is willing to eat and is passing the food. Passing the food is key as Goldfish are constant grazers and need to keep food moving through their digestive tract.
Devon
Sent: On Wed, Aug 16, 2017 at 6:19 AM
AAP,
Thank you, Devon. I have noticed a yellow tinge around his face and an yellow patch under his belly (see photo). I don’t know if the yellow patch was there prior (normal coloring), but I am concerned both may be signs of liver failure.
I’m sure the crappy water environment has wreaked havoc on his body. I am trying desperately to help him, but it may be too late.
I plan on fasting all the fish for today and probably tomorrow to give the sick fish time. I don’t think having him eat more food at this moment would be good for his liver and kidney. Do you agree that I should hold off until I leave Friday morning on feeding them? I plan on leaving regular food and peas soaked in Garlic Guard for the house sitter, having her feed them once daily.
Also, I expect to receive the Methylene Blue today. Do you suggest I try giving him MB bathes? If so, how often, size container, and how much medication?
Thank you very much!
Greg
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 8:55 AM
Greg,
If your concerned, the treatment should shop. Perhaps give the fish some time before the next treatment like after your time away and this will give some time for the immunity to build.
That was my concern was the immunity was damaged from the water softener. Many times, just getting the fish in proper water will build immunity back up and the fish can heal on its own without harder treatments.
Thanks,
Devon
Sent: On Aug 16, 2017 3:56 AM
AAP,
I mixed one scoop of Sea Chem’s MetraPlex and one scoop of Sea Chem’s Focus along with one tbsp of pellet food and garlic yesterday afternoon.
I fed to the fish and refrigerated the rest of the food in a cleaned prescription bottle.
Late last night I noticed the sick fish was spending a lot of time in the corner of the tank, poking around at the gravel. He did not seem right.
This morning is condition is the same. I am concerned the Metrondizole may have reacted poorly with his liver How should I proceed?
I am performing a 20% water change this morning.
Thank you,
Greg
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2017 3:53 PM
Greg,
Yes, I'm am just not certain that it's parasites by the picture or description. That's why I say if it is parasites, which you would know if the detritus is stringy.
Thanks,
Devon
Sent: On Tue, Aug 15, 2017 at 12:50 PM
AAP,
Thank you, Devon. Are you saying I should proceed with the Metroplex/Focus mix?
Greg
Date: Tue, August 15, 2017 3:26 PM -0400
Greg,
Seems like you would want to continue your treatment if the detritus is long and stringy. I think your medication choice is worth another try and if you don't see improvement you may have to consider something like Clout. I will resay though that it's difficult to have a successful treatment if the fish has osmotic damage from water issues and is just now adjusting to new water.
Devon
Sent: On Tue, Aug 15, 2017 at 11:38 AM, D'Amore, Gregory C <gregory.damore@pnc.com> wrote:
AAP,
I fed him last night at 9:00 PM, and he passed waste this morning at 11:00 AM. I don’t know if went in between, so I thought he may be constipated.
I don’t have PraziPro. How do you feel about a MetroPlex/Focus treatment – 1 tbsp of pellet food, 1 scoop of Metroplex, 1 scoop of Focus mixed with GarliGuard? This worked well when my common had a parasite.
I can treat the fish (there are three other goldfish in tank, all with healthy stools) today through Friday, then have the house sitter administer a light-normal diet until I return on 8/25. I would refrigerate the remaining medicated food. Your thoughts?
Thank you.
Greg
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2017 2:17 PM
Greg,
If the detritus is clear or brown strings, it's usually a parasite.
If the fish is eating, how do you know the fish is constipated?
Yes, I agree, the fish shouldn't be in salt baths.
If it's parasites, I would treat with something like PraziPro and try another round of medicated food.
Devon
Sent: On Tue, Aug 15, 2017 at 11:09 AM
AAP,
Thanks, Devon. Does his detritus look like there may be parasites? I will put the wonder shells into the water when they arrive, and will soak their food in Vita-Chem (vitamin solution).
I need to decide if I should have the house sitter administer food/medicine to fight parasites while I am away, or feed the fish with a light-normal diet with fiber/peas until I return.
Also, do you agree that I should avoid a “salt bath” due to the amount of sodium exposure from the water softener? Like your support previously suggested, perhaps a methylene bath without salt?
Thank you so much!
Greg
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2017 1:50 PM
Greg,
We handle all product related questions and treatment questions through email, as we need written records so all our tech support can help and know what was said. We also need written records if there's a mix-up to know what was said.
At this point, I think you need to get regular maintenance with the wonder shell and food. You can try another round of antibiotic food. If the fish is still eating, that's a good thing. If the detritus looks like there might be internal parasites, you could try a treatment like PraziPro.
Devon
Sent: On Tue, Aug 15, 2017 at 10:24 AM
AAP,
Devon, thank you. Do you folks have a technical support line I can call for advice on treatment? I didn’t want to call your office without checking first.
I would order the medicated wonder shells now, but I leave for vacation on Friday for a week. L As it is, I am scrambling to put together a treatment and feeding plan while I am away for my house sitter.
Greg
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2017 12:03 PM
Greg,
It's hard to say at this point. You need the goods you purchased from us and start with the constant dissolving shell. A medicated shell could have been used, since we really don't know what's going on. If water is just now being corrected, the fish would be struggling from the prior time in the poor water. Water softeners are very hard on osmoregulation of fish,
At this point, I don't want to recommend medications as medications will not as effectively repair or help when there was a water quality issue. These need to be corrected long term for medications to be most effective. You're med feeding was a good idea. You could also think about gentle methylene blue baths for a while.
You might want to join our sponsored forum to ask for others help. Someone in the forum may have experienced this issue and could help more. Others would learn from your experience as well.
Everything Aquatic
Thanks,
Devon
On Tue, Aug 15, 2017 at 8:44 AM, D'Amore, Gregory C <gregory.damore@pnc.com> wrote:
AAP,
Please help…
I will follow up with phone call, but as you can see, my Oranda’s stool is not right. He last ate at 9:00 PM yesterday, and he just pooped. I am concerned he is either constipated, or has internal damage.
· I have fed the fish a healthy amount of peas during the last 72 hours, and plan on fasting them today.
· They also just came off a 6 day Kanamycin treatment (1 tbsp of 3mm pellet food with one scoop of Sea Chem Kanaplex and one scoop of Sea Chem Focus). I mixed with Garlic Guard & refrigerated the food during the 6 days. They ate about 80% of food – feeding once daily.
Brief history…
· I lost two fish to dropsy (February and two weeks ago)
· I believe cause of Dropsy was due to very low mineral intake, and poor Osmoregulation which led to kidney failure.
· The fish have been exposed to very low GH levels (30-50) and high sodium during the last 6 months, due to water source (water softener with sodium chloride).
· I began fixing the water quality several weeks ago. I am fortunate to have hard water, so I have been performing weekly 20% water changes bypassing my water softener. Water parameters are now looking good….
o GH: 160 (I am slowly increasing until I reach 200-300 level)
o KH: 100-120 (I am trying to get this between 120-180, ideally 140).
o pH: 7.5
o Nitrate: 10-20
o Nitrite & ammonia: 0
· I have been treating the tank every 3 days with Sea Chem Gold Trace in attempt to provide them minerals, and will do another weekly water change tomorrow which will help increase their GH level & mineral intake. Also plan on treating the tank with Wonder Shells and/or Sea Chem Replenish.
I was going to give him a salt bath on Sunday, but decided against it due to the high exposure to sodium during the past six months.
Thank you,
Greg