black moor sick AGAIN

[jessyka182]

Hi All

I am looking for some quick help as I am not really sure what I can do for my beloved black moor. Peach is about 1, and is my fan tailed, buggy eyes black moor. She is in a 55 gal with a ryukin, a pleco, 2 goldfish (have no clue what kind they are)and a standard carnival goldfish with a missing fin (who I literally acquire at a carnival out of pitty)

I'll start at the beginning of Peachs illness. About 6 months ago my tank came down with ick. We successfully treated the tank by raising the temperature and adding salt, taking out our carbon media, and using Rid Ick Plus. Within a week (although we treated for 2) all off the spots had disappeared. We left the temperature up at 83 for another 2 months with no issues at all.

Fast forward to last week. We had to change the tank decor (since the ryukin got stuck in the castle and nearly killed himself trying to get out). So we removed any potential hazards and went with silk plants. I washed the plants and soaked them in prime (my normal routine before adding things) we added the faux plants and 2 days later I noticed a scratch on her google eyes. The next day, both eyes were swollen so I assumed pop eye. I checked levels, did an immediate water change while I waited on the results. PH is average for our tank, 7.4 ammo 0. Nitrite 0 nitrate more than 0 less than 5. Clearly it is not a water issue (I think) we condition with prime, run 2 sunsun canisters, one 5 stage and one 4 stage) and we have 1 airstone, 2 air bubble bars and one sponge filter which also bubbles.

I thought possible she had pop eye. But she was otherwise healthy. I noticed her bumping into fish more and a slight slow down in her swimming speed but I attribute that to not being able to see. I treated the tank with an increase in salt, and a tad bit of epsom salt. She will not let me net/ collander her.

After a few days the one eye has totally cleared up and the other has gone down as well however there is a small raised area which almost looks like a scab. Fast forward a few days and I notice that she is starting to get a bit of fraying in her fancy fins. I treat with some stressguard. A few more days go by and now she has developed what looks like fuzzy cotton on the frayed fin. Now I would assume fungus? But the tank parameters are perfect, the tanks been established well over a year and no other fish are showing signs of having anything wrong. I continue to do daily water changes and monitor levels but nothing seems to be out of whack. I know she (and the pleco) are the most sensitive fish I have but I cant understand what is wrong or how to fix it.

I was thinking of using hydrogen peroxide since the tank is well aerated and just cutting off one of the filters while I do the treatment so I don't disrupt all of my bacteria. I was also thinking of methelyne blue. Or should I stick to something like Paraguard?

Any input or advice is greatly appreciated
Oh and FYI I use seachem Matrix and purigen in both canisters as well as a filter floss, the generic scrubbing pads, ceramic balls, and ammonia reducing pads. Each filter has at least 1 duplicate
,

[bettarescue]

I apologize if I forget to answer something you asked but here's my thoughts:

The eye: keep clean water (and mineral cations for immunity support) and keep watch. With it going down in size, it seems like it's healing on its own. Epsom salt and methlyne blue baths should help with the Popeye type symptoms she's experiencing due to the abrasion.

However, if what your seeing as possible fungus is actually columnaris then the eyes would more likely be a symptom of, and treated along with the columnaris (with kanamycin and Furanol mix either in tank or via baths). With one eye almost better, and the other damaged and still problematic- I don't think this is the case.

Can you upload a picture of the eye scab, and the possible fungus? From what you've said It could be fungus OR columnaris- will you explain in detail the color and texture you're seeing on the tail?

Here's a great article about deciphering true columnaris from true fungus:

www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Columnaris.html



Also: furan based meds are great for abrasions and cuts, if you find the wound won't finish healing then this is a great medicine to use!

Tail: hydrogen peroxide or potassium permagate would be a great swab for the tail, but with you unable to catch her this isn't a great in tank option. Methylene blue is also a good swab and is usually used in baths, but I don't think in tank use will give enough support.

Pardon me saying this, as I mean no harm by it and am by no means a goldfish expert but I believe you may be a little over stocked. Correcting the conditions that create fungus/and or columnaris is one of the most important markers in healing. This article on disease prevention and maintaining a healthy aquarium is a must read!:

www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquarium_Disease.html

[childofiam]

Sorry about all of your problems. The one thing I can say is, if you shut one canister off, all of the bacteria will die off in about 4 hours. How I have solved this is to set one of the canisters to run in another water source. If you don't have another tank to run it on then get a storage tote and fill it with H2O and supply a little ammonia to feed the bacteria.
It is best to do a bath on a single fish and this may require you to remove everything from the tank to catch the fish. I would also do a hydrogen peroxide 1 to 4 ratio soak on all ornaments for 24 hours. Never use any soap products to clean anything in your tank. I use bleach soaks or hydrogen peroxide soaks, scrubbing with a brush and then a final soak with prime treated H2O for a few hours up to 24 hours.
I am not a expert in meds so I will leave that advice for the experts...

Richard

[jessyka182]

Sorry about all of your problems. The one thing I can say is, if you shut one canister off, all of the bacteria will die off in about 4 hours. How I have solved this is to set one of the canisters to run in another water source. If you don't have another tank to run it on then get a storage tote and fill it with H2O and supply a little ammonia to feed the bacteria.
It is best to do a bath on a single fish and this may require you to remove everything from the tank to catch the fish. I would also do a hydrogen peroxide 1 to 4 ratio soak on all ornaments for 24 hours. Never use any soap products to clean anything in your tank. I use bleach soaks or hydrogen peroxide soaks, scrubbing with a brush and then a final soak with prime treated H2O for a few hours up to 24 hours.
I am not a expert in meds so I will leave that advice for the experts...

Richard

Richard,

Thank you for the input on the canister.  We do have a backup tank, granted at present it is unheated however, that is a quick and easy fix.  I think that backing off one of the canisters and using it in the spare would be a good compromise instead of killing all of my beneficial bacteria.  

I have never soaked the ornaments in hydrogen peroxide, but hey, it's worth a shot.  I've never used any kind of soap in the tank, or on the ornaments.  I always just soaked everything in prime/water mix, followed by a rinse, and a tank water/prime mixture before putting it into the tank.  

[jessyka182]

Feb 15, 2017 1:35:57 GMT -5 bettarescue said:

I apologize if I forget to answer something you asked but here's my thoughts:

The eye: keep clean water (and mineral cations for immunity support) and keep watch. With it going down in size, it seems like it's healing on its own. Epsom salt and methlyne blue baths should help with the Popeye type symptoms she's experiencing due to the abrasion.

However, if what your seeing as possible fungus is actually columnaris then the eyes would more likely be a symptom of, and treated along with the columnaris (with kanamycin and Furanol mix either in tank or via baths). With one eye almost better, and the other damaged and still problematic- I don't think this is the case.

Can you upload a picture of the eye scab, and the possible fungus? From what you've said It could be fungus OR columnaris- will you explain in detail the color and texture you're seeing on the tail?

Here's a great article about deciphering true columnaris from true fungus:

www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Columnaris.html



Also: furan based meds are great for abrasions and cuts, if you find the wound won't finish healing then this is a great medicine to use!

Tail: hydrogen peroxide or potassium permagate would be a great swab for the tail, but with you unable to catch her this isn't a great in tank option. Methylene blue is also a good swab and is usually used in baths, but I don't think in tank use will give enough support.

Pardon me saying this, as I mean no harm by it and am by no means a goldfish expert but I believe you may be a little over stocked. Correcting the conditions that create fungus/and or columnaris is one of the most important markers in healing. This article on disease prevention and maintaining a healthy aquarium is a must read!:

www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquarium_Disease.html

Thank you for all of the helpful information.  I re-checked levels this morning and completed another gravel vac (just to be on the safe side) levels were all the same as last night.  Ammo 0, Nitrites 0, Nitrates still more than 0 less than 5, no change in pH either.  We do regular water changes (daily, since this eyeball outbreak) of about 25%.  We also gravel vac every 2-3 days depending on how hungry the pleco is feeling.  Then we monitor the salt content in the tank, and adjust as needed after each water change.  

They fuzzy fungus looking growths disappeared last night right after the water change and addition of more salt.  I did notice this morning that she seems to be light sensitive, which I think is what may have started this whole thing.  We got a new light bar around the same time that her eye issues started.  There is a noticeable difference in her activity when the lights are on as compared to off.  At night, while most of the other fish are "sleeping"/staying still towards the bottom of the tank, she is doing zoomies and laps around the tank.  In the morning when I turned the lights on, she immediately stopped and kind of sank down towards the bottom.  I dimmed the lights, and within a few seconds she was slightly more perky.  I then turned the lights from white to blue, and she seemed to go back to zoomies and laps.  Is it possible that after a year she has developed a sensitivity to light, or is this a complication of her eye injury? If that is the case, is it safe to leave the lights off until she heals? I mean I can leave them on blue, or very dim white until her eye gets better, but I think that may be why she has been so clumsy.

As far as the fungus that was on the tail, it was a white, cottony like circular growth.  It became detached almost immediately (within 5 minutes) of the additon of aquarium salt into the tank.  I took 2 videos of her activity last night, once I figure out how to upload them, I will link them here.  

[devonjohnsgard]

Hi there.

Here are my thoughts.

Clearly the fish's immunity has been broken down and now is able to attract disease much easier.

Gold fish are more colder water fish. This warm water was fine for the treatment, but now is not helping immunity and will promote spread of fungus.

As per Carl's Ich article. The heat method and the salt method should not be used at the same time. To much stress and could cause oxygen issues. Causing further issues
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquarium_Ich.html#heat

These stressors need to be addressed or you will always just be treating. I'm not going to give a medication recommendation. I'm going to link you to this article about treatment is like, without finding the cause.
www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2016/09/how-to-treat-sick-fish.html

Also keep in mind Goldfish diet as this is key for immunity. If they're not being feed correctly, immunity will always have an issue.

Goldfish Care:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Goldfish_disease.html

[Carl]

Welcome to EA!

There are already many good answers here, so I will not answer over these:

Here area few thoughts as to a couple of your questions.

At night, while most of the other fish are "sleeping"/staying still towards the bottom of the tank, she is doing zoomies and laps around the tank. In the morning when I turned the lights on, she immediately stopped and kind of sank down towards the bottom. I dimmed the lights, and within a few seconds she was slightly more perky. Is it possible that after a year she has developed a sensitivity to light, or is this a complication of her eye injury? If that is the case, is it safe to leave the lights off until she heals? I mean I can leave them on blue, or very dim white until her eye gets better, but I think that may be why she has been so clumsy.

Darkening a tank is a method of treatment that has merits. The blue light appears to be having a similar affect to a dark tank if i read correctly.
Usually the affect on fish is the opposite as to what you are observing here (meaning a darkened tank calms fish), so I do not have a clear answer

As far as the fungus that was on the tail, it was a white, cottony like circular growth. It became detached almost immediately (within 5 minutes) of the additon of aquarium salt into the tank. I took 2 videos of her activity last night, once I figure out how to upload them, I will link them here.

Usually fungus does not detach this easily, this more describes Lymphosystis

A picture or video would be helpful. The attachment feature in the upper right corner when replying (not quick reply) works easily for pictures. However a video would need to be hosted at YouTube or Photobucket and then the url is shared here.

Carl

[jessyka182]

Here are the 2 links to the videos I uploaded:

youtu.be/LWQ49CJgNZE


youtu.be/y2Dsys6-qTk

[jessyka182]

Welcome to EA!

There are already many good answers here, so I will not answer over these:

Here area few thoughts as to a couple of your questions.

At night, while most of the other fish are "sleeping"/staying still towards the bottom of the tank, she is doing zoomies and laps around the tank. In the morning when I turned the lights on, she immediately stopped and kind of sank down towards the bottom. I dimmed the lights, and within a few seconds she was slightly more perky. Is it possible that after a year she has developed a sensitivity to light, or is this a complication of her eye injury? If that is the case, is it safe to leave the lights off until she heals? I mean I can leave them on blue, or very dim white until her eye gets better, but I think that may be why she has been so clumsy.

Darkening a tank is a method of treatment that has merits. The blue light appears to be having a similar affect to a dark tank if i read correctly.
Usually the affect on fish is the opposite as to what you are observing here (meaning a darkened tank calms fish), so I do not have a clear answer

As far as the fungus that was on the tail, it was a white, cottony like circular growth. It became detached almost immediately (within 5 minutes) of the additon of aquarium salt into the tank. I took 2 videos of her activity last night, once I figure out how to upload them, I will link them here.

Usually fungus does not detach this easily, this more describes Lymphosystis

A picture or video would be helpful. The attachment feature in the upper right corner when replying (not quick reply) works easily for pictures. However a video would need to be hosted at YouTube or Photobucket and then the url is shared here.

Carl

Carl,

Thank you for the input, and I have included 2 videos for reference.  As far as the darkening is concerned, once the lights are off, all of the other fish seem to nestle down and swim in place overnight.  We call this sleeping, although I doubt that is what they are actually doing.  Once the light comes back on, within a few seconds they perk up and begin swimming around and start foraging for food.  Peach (the sick one) does the opposite of all other fish.  Perhaps she is a party animal and just prefers to burn the midnight oil, but I never noticed this behavior until she started having the issue with her eyes.  

I will go home today and check for any additional fuzzy spots on her, however as of an hour ago, my husband said he did not see any.  

[Carl]

Feb 15, 2017 15:12:31 GMT -5 jessyka182 said:

Thank you for the input, and I have included 2 videos for reference.  As far as the darkening is concerned, once the lights are off, all of the other fish seem to nestle down and swim in place overnight.  We call this sleeping, although I doubt that is what they are actually doing.  Once the light comes back on, within a few seconds they perk up and begin swimming around and start foraging for food.  Peach (the sick one) does the opposite of all other fish.  Perhaps she is a party animal and just prefers to burn the midnight oil, but I never noticed this behavior until she started having the issue with her eyes.  

I will go home today and check for any additional fuzzy spots on her, however as of an hour ago, my husband said he did not see any.  

Sorry for the late/slow response, your last two posts did not come up initially in my unread posts feed.

Anyway, the videos were helpful, thanks for posting.

In particular they add light to why your Black Moor acts the opposite of the other fish. This appears to be a growth on the outside of the eye (I cannot see close enough to determine if fungal, bacterial or even viral).
What I can say is when I have observed similar growths on the eyes, these seemed to be highly irritable. This has resulted in exactly what you have described, a fish that once it is more "awake" and active, this irritation seems worse.

Treatment would be best with a diluted Potassium Permanganate direct swab to this part of the eye. A discontinued product called "EyeFungex" (by Aquatronics) would work even better (we do a couple of "hoarded" packages left)

more tips can be found here:
www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2009/01/streptococcus-eye-infections.html

Carl