Columnaris Treatment Swab?

[justme]

Hi Everyone,
   I'm pretty sure my entire tank has Columnaris also with a possibility of TB (tumors on gills). I think it was the stress of separating them along with the overstocking that encouraged the problem.  I have platys, it is l planted and I'm still finding babies after separating them over six months ago. I don't run a high tech tank. I already use salt at 1/2 dose because of my plants and do weekly (lately biweekly) water changes because of overstocking. Do you think I can use Methylene Blue, Furan Two, Kanamycin, and salt in the entire tank without destroying my plants, babies and snails? I have a 10 gallon ready to put the males in for now, but it will be very expensive to double my meds to treat both tanks.
  To have to do a water bath on everyone would probably kill them from the stress.  Any ideas?

[Carl]

Hi just me;
Since Columnaris is often stress induced, could you please provide your water parameters, your filtration system, fish food fed, chemicals used (including meds up until now) and maintenance procedures.
What amount of salt is 1/2 dose (there is no one specific dose)?

These are all important to know before giving a blanket recommendation.

If the whole tank has it, your best remedy is a hospital tank with just a seasoned high capacity sponge filter (such as the AAP Hydro sponge), as you are correct, giving baths to all fish would probably add more stress to you and the fish.


Otherwise, & without knowing important information, I would be careful with these meds in a combination in a planted aquarium. Better would be a Medicated Wonder Shell in combination with the Kanaplex & Furan 2, but this would still be a strong treatment that likely would burn back planted if not used in a hospital tank.

Pictures would be helpful too

I urge reading these articles:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquarium_Disease.html

www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Columnaris.html

www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2008/03/salt-in-freshwater-aquariums.html


Carl

[justme]

 


Hi Carl,

I have been on here just recently and the American Aquarium pages reading for days about all of this, my mind is just overwhelmed by all the info. I now see that I can't use the Methylene Blue with plants, so that's out if I don't move them.

On some fish it starts as a black area on the face or gills, some it invades the gills and grows outward. Some develope a tumor, mostly on gills, sometimes other areas. It never gets better, and is always terminal. Some pass without any outward damage. Started with the males who have always seemed smaller and weaker.

The API Aquarium Salt dose is 1 rounded TBS per 5 gal., so I use a scant 3TBS for 29 gal., replacing only 1 1/2 TBS when I do a 50% water change. I started this a couple months ago hoping to strengthen them a little bit, not knowing what else to do.

pH 7.6 + always has been, comes out of the tap like that
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrates 40-160 can't get them to stay down, so water changes once or twice a week, gravel once a week.

Water temp is about 72

I have well water that is high in iron.

I have no other test equipment.

No meds.

Fluval 206 & Whisper 3 -both with prefilters on intake.
-no carbon just foam and media
2 Airstones

Spirulina flakes that the fish store uses in their tanks, once a day.
-TetraMin before that and when Spirulina is not available.

I just put a Wonder Shell in that I found at the pet store, I thought it was the AAP's but now I see it's not, its from WECO. I'm thinking about removing it until I figure out the meds.

***I can remove the plants to do treatments if necessary, I think that would be easier for the fish to handle, but wouldn't the disease stay
on the plants (or in the water if I hospitalize the fish)? ***



Julie

[Carl]

Jan 20, 2017 22:34:11 GMT -5 justme said:

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Hi Carl,

I have been on here just recently and the American Aquarium pages reading for days about all of this, my mind is just overwhelmed by all the info. I now see that I can't use the Methylene Blue with plants, so that's out if I don't move them.

***I can remove the plants to do treatments if necessary, I think that would be easier for the fish to handle, but wouldn't the disease stay
on the plants (or in the water if I hospitalize the fish)? ***

I think your idea of moving out the plants is a good one if a hospital tank is not an option

On some fish it starts as a black area on the face or gills, some it invades the gills and grows outward. Some develope a tumor, mostly on gills, sometimes other areas. It never gets better, and is always terminal. Some pass without any outward damage. Started with the males who have always seemed smaller and weaker.

For this, unfortunately your best hope is a full strength swab of Methyene Blue or a diluted swab of potassium permanganate

Reference:
www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2009/07/fish-baths.html#dips

The API Aquarium Salt dose is 1 rounded TBS per 5 gal., so I use a scant 3TBS for 29 gal., replacing only 1 1/2 TBS when I do a 50% water change. I started this a couple months ago hoping to strengthen them a little bit, not knowing what else to do.

Good

pH 7.6 + always has been, comes out of the tap like that
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrates 40-160 can't get them to stay down, so water changes once or twice a week, gravel once a week.

Utilize AAP/SeaChem Marix and/or volcanic rock in your Fluval Filter.
Watch bio load, utilize only highly digestible fish food (no TetraMin)

Water temp is about 72

Bring it up to 75F

I have well water that is high in iron.

Try using Purigen too in your filter too, although the impact on Iron is somewhat minimal

I have no other test equipment.

Get at least a 5 in 1 Test Strips to get an idea of KH & GH

Resource:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquariumtestkit.html#5in1

Fluval 206 & Whisper 3 -both with prefilters on intake.
-no carbon just foam and media
2 Airstones

Great, just try tweaking filter media, maybe consider a separate AAP Sponge Filter
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/SpongeFilter.html

Spirulina flakes that the fish store uses in their tanks, once a day.
-TetraMin before that and when Spirulina is not available.

Dump the TetraMin.Consider using the top notch AAP Custom by Clay Neighbors in place of it

Resource:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/ParadigmFoods.html

I just put a Wonder Shell in that I found at the pet store, I thought it was the AAP's but now I see it's not, its from WECO. I'm thinking about removing it until I figure out the meds.

This is fine, the AAP starts with the Weco

However I would recommend the Medicated Version by AAP which Weco does not sell as I noted in my previous post

Resource:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/MedicatedWonderShell.html

BTW, I see no evidence of fish TB

Carl

[devonjohnsgard]

Carl made some great recommendations. Wonder shells and consider the medicated wonder shells.

[justme]

Thanks for the reply! You have no idea how relieved I am that you don't think it is TB! I thought for sure that is what the tumors were.

***I have the medicated shells in my cart, plus a whole bunch of other things. If I get the plants out, should I still use the Kanaplex & Furan 2 with Medicated shells, as per your first message, in the tank, and the Methyene Blue swab for the worst ones?

*I made the mistake of putting overflow plants in my 10 gal hospital tank, so everything here has been contaminated with Columnaris. Didn't I read somewhere on AAP that it is always in the water anyway, just waiting for a weak victim? ...So, do I not worry about the water and plants? I ask because I am suppose to send my extra plants to someone so I don't have to compost them.

There is Biohome media in my Fluval along with the white ceramic that it came with. I will check into the Marix and volcanic rock.

Got rid of the TetraMin and am ordering the AAP Omnivore.

There is SO much info at AAP, it's almost overwhelming. I quit reading about the UV Sterilizers, I just don't understand the jargon.

[Carl]

Jan 21, 2017 18:10:49 GMT -5 justme said:

Thanks for the reply! You have no idea how relieved I am that you don't think it is TB! I thought for sure that is what the tumors were.

***I have the medicated shells in my cart, plus a whole bunch of other things. If I get the plants out, should I still use the Kanaplex & Furan 2 with Medicated shells, as per your first message, in the tank, and the Methyene Blue swab for the worst ones?

Yes!

*I made the mistake of putting overflow plants in my 10 gal hospital tank, so everything here has been contaminated with Columnaris. Didn't I read somewhere on AAP that it is always in the water anyway, just waiting for a weak victim? ...So, do I not worry about the water and plants? I ask because I am suppose to send my extra plants to someone so I don't have to compost them.

Columnaris is quite common, but it has not been proven that I know if it always present.
Generally it is a fish infected by Columnaris that allows it to go systemic, not plants

There is Biohome media in my Fluval along with the white ceramic that it came with. I will check into the Marix and volcanic rock.

BioHome is an excellent product, so you do not need to get rid of it. I would remove the ceramic media in favor of the Matrix and/or Volcanic rock

Got rid of the TetraMin and am ordering the AAP Omnivore.

Good choice!

There is SO much info at AAP, it's almost overwhelming. I quit reading about the UV Sterilizers, I just don't understand the jargon.

Investing in a true level one capable UV someday is a good investment!

Carl

[bettarescue]

Hey justme I wanted to give a quick reminder to do a partial water change before each treatment, and the Furan will turn your water a yucky yellow color- it's normal. IAlso, any extra O2 you can add to the water during this time will help, as Carl mentioned by adding a sponge filter, an air stone, and if possible turning up flow on your filter. Also please wear gloves when dosing these meds as they have many warnings for human health if inhaled/ingested etc.

I know how you feel, going from rhetoric on the web to finding real scienctific facts, the wording isn't even the same lol I personally have read the aquarium lighting article going on 20+ times, still digesting it in small bites, much like the UV sterilizer article. All my tanks range from 5-20gal, and just settled on a Sunsun cup submersible 9w-from AAP of course, so that it performs true level 1 sterilization. But this model goes in your tank and plugs in, easy peasy! That is where I started my understanding of the parts and workings, may help you as well. Just a thing or two that crossed my mind.

How are the Platys, any new issues, any positive changes ?

[justme]

Hello All,
Ok, I received my order, but have to go to town to get some things to make treatment easier. I have lost a few more fish. I would like to do the Methylene Blue swab on a few tonight but have some questions.

*Do I use it straight from the bottle?
*Can I put it onto the gills and eyes?
*Is it better to use a q-tip or dropper?
*Do I put them directly back into the tank?

***Any tips or suggestions before I attempt this?***

[Carl]

Feb 1, 2017 21:41:58 GMT -5 justme said:

Hello All,
Ok, I received my order, but have to go to town to get some things to make treatment easier. I have lost a few more fish. I would like to do the Methylene Blue swab on a few tonight but have some questions.

*Do I use it straight from the bottle?
*Can I put it onto the gills and eyes?
*Is it better to use a q-tip or dropper?
*Do I put them directly back into the tank?

***Any tips or suggestions before I attempt this?***

Yes it can be used straight from the bottle. I preferred using a Q-Tip for application

The fish can be added directly back, but I preferred to add them to a hospital tank or breeder net for easy and less stressful re-capture



Carl

[bettarescue]

justme methylene blue is safe near the gills yes, I have used it around the eye muscle so to speak but not on the eye lens directly as I was in fear of scratching it, however if you used a dropper on the eye ball you face no risk of scratching with the q-tip. (Correct me if I'm mistaken Carl)

I also use a q-tip however I like the baby ones with the little tip and wide base. That way it's more precise and you can soak up much more in the upper ball of cotton that will drop down as you apply.

Have you done an application yet? How did it go?

[Carl]

Feb 3, 2017 3:02:29 GMT -5 bettarescue said:

justme methylene blue is safe near the gills yes, I have used it around the eye muscle so to speak but not on the eye lens directly as I was in fear of scratching it, however if you used a dropper on the eye ball you face no risk of scratching with the q-tip. (Correct me if I'm mistaken Carl)

Good point!
Thanks for jumping in and making this point

Carl

[justme]

  Ok, I ended up doing a bath for EVERYONE last night, because it seems they all have something on them, and treated the tank, now I'm having second thoughts. I read somewhere that the tank water shouldn't be diluted during treatment, but if I'm suppose to use the tank water for the bath, like I did last night, I have to replace the water (1 gal) taken out of the tank. *Plus now the tank water has meds already in it, and by using that, won't there end up being too much medication in the bath water?

   Bettarescue, I did do a swab on a few but it didn't seem like much blue stained the fish. I did use q-tips, but ended up basically swabbing the whole fish. I was worried about having them out of the water too long so, and used a rinse tub before putting them back in the tank.

   *So, should I continue with the baths with the concentrated tank water every day?
   *Should I continue to treat the tank, also? (it's torture knowing I'm destroying my good bacteria)
    
  *** Bath had Methylene Blue, KanaPlex, MetroPlex, Furan-2 (at double tank strength) and salt for 30 mins.
        Tank has all but the Methylene Blue.
   
     Thanks for the help everyone, I'm at a loss here.

[Carl]

Feb 4, 2017 0:02:13 GMT -5 justme said:

  Ok, I ended up doing a bath for EVERYONE last night, because it seems they all have something on them, and treated the tank, now I'm having second thoughts. I read somewhere that the tank water shouldn't be diluted during treatment, but if I'm suppose to use the tank water for the bath, like I did last night, I have to replace the water (1 gal) taken out of the tank. *Plus now the tank water has meds already in it, and by using that, won't there end up being too much medication in the bath water?

this will depend upon when you last treated the main aquarium The main aquarium should also have a 20-25% water change before each full treatment (running carbon for 2 hours prior is helpful too)
Reference:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquarium_Medication.html

At worst you would have a triple dose in the bath, so if performing a bath right after tank treatment, you can change the doe to a full dose (instead of a double dose bath treatment)

I did do a swab on a few but it didn't seem like much blue stained the fish. I did use q-tips, but ended up basically swabbing the whole fish. I was worried about having them out of the water too long so, and used a rinse tub before putting them back in the tank.

This is a good indicator.
When the MB stains the fish, this mean the fish epidermis slime coat has failed in these areas, often an indicator of injury or disease in these areas

*So, should I continue with the baths with the concentrated tank water every day?

As per my first comment, just use a single dose in the baths

*Should I continue to treat the tank, also? (it's torture knowing I'm destroying my good bacteria)

Yes,, especially if the infection is systemic, however for only one fish I would say no if the infection is mild
Swapping out with a healthy seeded sponge filter can help, as does the use of 20-25% water changes

From the Aquarium Medication Part 1 article:
"Having on hand separate sponge filter, bio media, even gravel in a healthy tank that can be added as needed to the tank under treatment, can go a long way in making a treatment effective.
A soaring ammonia level in an aquarium can cancel the benefits of any treatment. I recommend testing ammonia during a treatment, especially with Erythromycin and Tetracyclines.
Then add this bio media at the first sign of an ammonia increase.
If this is not possible or in addition the above suggestion, the use of SeaChem Stability or similar facultative bacterial aids should be added approximately 12 hours after each medication treatment dosing to aid in maintaining your bio filter"

www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquarium_Medication.html

Carl