Sanders Reef Tank

[devonjohnsgard]

per Orphek

"Ok I got you , if we disconnected part of the LEDs
More power will fall on other and all the design is internal inside the pcb that why no soldering LEDs
But insted we take out the lens and cover the glass with black sticker to block the light in the center the light will find the way from the side .
And from the lens so you get more light at the top and reset of the light going down with very sharp lens 15d
So you get very high PAR at bottom and can grow every type of coral there .
Beside we will do 2 channels blue and white

And the client will enjoy both worlds ."

Our cost for the LED would be $1599. Free shipping. Let us know if you would like to move forward with this option.

[leon]

Cool - keep me posted on the light. I was working on the project over the weekend and have some concerns on the pumps both ordered the same Rio 32 HF. The main pump from the sump to the tank will rise 15+ feet and the specs say max. 14ft/head. Probably not going to get any turbulence effect in the discharge. I followed one of your links to Quality Marine and looks like wholesale only - came across this:

Power 1000
PWR (Power) Series
Manufactured by Multi-Duty Mfg.
The truly power hungry can now enjoy the Power series. These high-speed pumps deliver big flow rates and loads of pressure. All Power series pumps have high efficiency enclosed impellers, stainless steel mechanical seals, and premium efficient Baldor motors. An 8-foot 230V cord with plug and stainless steel hardware are included. The Power series pump is covered by a manufacturers 3-year warranty and can be wired for 115 or 230V.

Features:
High efficiency TEFC (Totally Enclosed Fan Cooled) motors
120 or 230V compatibility
3-year manufacturers warranty
Data Chart:
Model 8500PWR55
INLET 1.5"
DISCHARGE 1.5"
MAX FLOW (gph) 8500
MAX HEAD (feet) 55'
MAX POWER (watts)1385
MAX CURRENT (amps)5.38
@ (volts) 230
MOTOR HP 1.5
MOTOR ENCLOSURE TEFC
IMPELLER 6T-3.85"

I know it is quite a bit more flow but the pump curve at higher head drops down quite a bit. My thought was to discharge through strategically place holes to create turbulence and I am afraid the Rio may be undersized. Looks good for the internal re-circ.
Any chance AAP supplies something similar or get a quote on this model?

[Carl]

We were assuming 8 feet for the tank so as to match the optimum flow rates for the in line equipment (FSB Filter & UV Sterilizer)
The Protein Skimmer that sits in the sump would have its own power supply

For inside the tank, this would still be a good pump, since you want a strong flow, but do not want to blast the inhabitants too.

I do not see the pump you asked about in the online QM order form

We have pumps that have 24.6 ft. of head pressure & a 0 head pressure flow rate of 4755 GPH HERE that are really reliable pumps (I've used thse many times in ponds)
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/ViaAquaPondPumps.html

Carl

[devonjohnsgard]

I wouldn't use that pump. Watts alone will kill your power bill. Carl and I were thinking a standard room size 8 fit. The size of the tank.

There's the low watt option on the page Carl linked you to, if the pump just doesn't cut it. Take would be my first recommendation if you need power.

For the light, I believe the next step is if you want it or not. Orphek seems confidant they can make it work. So, I can let them know. We just need to know if you want to go this direction.

[leon]

Guess I could do some explaining. Not to make this more complicated but one of the concerns that was brought up was the "what if" the pump goes out/power failure and worst case check valve failure. You understand the double tube concept of the suction/discharge sketched up in the beginning now I am thinking of making this a triple tube. (Check out our web site Thermaline.com) we make triple tubes for pasteurizing food products. Different but similar - the inner tube will still be overflow gravity to the sump (tank is still 8'tall) Discharge from the pump will still go up the space between the inner tube and shell but I plan to direct it back down the annular space between the 2nd and 3rd tube discharging back towards the bottom which adds another 7+ feet. This way I can still force the filtered water to the bottom and put a couple small discharge holes up high that would provide an atmospheric break at rest preventing a siphon or drain back. I know this sounds like a lot but is completely doable unless you see otherwise.

I can sketch it out if you like. With the added head and restrictions the proposed pump will operate at higher pressures but flow will be down around desired range and remaining spec'd equipment should be good.

I need a beer now so I can digest the light options.

[leon]

What are the dims of the big Orpheck light - couldn't find it on their site. I did see Orpheck has smaller socket style and Nano lights if they were comparable in power I could arrange a few of them on a ring and not have to block out the inner LED's on the big light. May be more economical also. Or do you carry a different brand of small high power LED's that could be arranged in a ring?

[Carl]

Dec 12, 2016 20:57:30 GMT -5 leon said:

Guess I could do some explaining. Not to make this more complicated but one of the concerns that was brought up was the "what if" the pump goes out/power failure and worst case check valve failure. You understand the double tube concept of the suction/discharge sketched up in the beginning now I am thinking of making this a triple tube. (Check out our web site Thermaline.com) we make triple tubes for pasteurizing food products. Different but similar - the inner tube will still be overflow gravity to the sump (tank is still 8'tall) Discharge from the pump will still go up the space between the inner tube and shell but I plan to direct it back down the annular space between the 2nd and 3rd tube discharging back towards the bottom which adds another 7+ feet. This way I can still force the filtered water to the bottom and put a couple small discharge holes up high that would provide an atmospheric break at rest preventing a siphon or drain back. I know this sounds like a lot but is completely doable unless you see otherwise.

I can sketch it out if you like. With the added head and restrictions the proposed pump will operate at higher pressures but flow will be down around desired range and remaining spec'd equipment should be good.

I need a beer now so I can digest the light options.

Another sketch would be nice, but I think I understand what you are stating, and I mostly see your point.

I still am leery of the pump you pointed to though, as these are really intended for pond use and are quite loud. I would prefer pump that is submersible too, as I have had less failure due to air bubbles, etc versus this style pump (which I have used I might add)

Since flow rate is important for the UV and FSB, having another return might be good, or better two separate pumps in the sump. One dedicated to flow and one dedicated to running the FSB Filter & UV. This way even if the pump running the FSB filter/UV Combo failed, the sump will continue to run with water going through the prefilter of volcanic rock/crushed coral crumbles as well as the sum mounted Protein Skimmer

Carl

[devonjohnsgard]

Dec 13, 2016 11:31:07 GMT -5 leon said:

What are the dims of the big Orpheck light - couldn't find it on their site. I did see Orpheck has smaller socket style and Nano lights if they were comparable in power I could arrange a few of them on a ring and not have to block out the inner LED's on the big light. May be more economical also. Or do you carry a different brand of small high power LED's that could be arranged in a ring?

This the one your talking about:
orphek.com/atlantik-pendant-300/

Looks like two would be the same as the amazonas wattage. They could be put on a ring. I would say two of them, but you might have some dimmer areas in between the lights.

These might be a better choose being that there met for 4 meters deep. The Amazonas is meant for 15 meters deep.

Maybe 4-5 of these?
orphek.com/pr72/

I don't see much control of color, but they do design what color you want and different angle optics.
orphek.com/orphek-amazonas-500-new-hightechnology-flipchip-leds/

[Carl]

Dec 13, 2016 13:23:32 GMT -5 devonjohnsgard said:

Dec 13, 2016 11:31:07 GMT -5 leon said:

What are the dims of the big Orpheck light - couldn't find it on their site. I did see Orpheck has smaller socket style and Nano lights if they were comparable in power I could arrange a few of them on a ring and not have to block out the inner LED's on the big light. May be more economical also. Or do you carry a different brand of small high power LED's that could be arranged in a ring?

This the one your talking about:
orphek.com/atlantik-pendant-300/

Looks like two would be the same as the amazonas wattage. They could be put on a ring. I would say two of them, but you might have some dimmer areas in between the lights.

These might be a better choose being that there met for 4 meters deep. The Amazonas is meant for 15 meters deep.

Maybe 4-5 of these?
orphek.com/pr72/

I don't see much control of color, but they do design what color you want and different angle optics.
orphek.com/orphek-amazonas-500-new-hightechnology-flipchip-leds/

I personally like the Atlantik over the PR72 since the PR72 seems to start trailing off after 60cm (which is two feet), which is OK for most marine aquariums of 30-36" or less, but I think this may not be enough even with several.

Carl

[leon]

That might work - Could we get price and availability on the PR72?

[devonjohnsgard]

Looks like the Atlantik is a $1500 light too! Must be a different bulb, so to not have shadows, You'd need like 2-3... looking like the Amazonas whould be the best choice, but would have to be dimmed.

The PR72 have the same penatration at the AquaRay light, so I would recommend AquaRay over the PR72, but they will still have penetration issues, with only being about to go to about 30 inch.

[Carl]

Dec 15, 2016 15:55:31 GMT -5 devonjohnsgard said:

The PR72 have the same penatration at the AquaRay light, so I would recommend AquaRay over the PR72, but they will still have penetration issues, with only being about to go to about 30 inch.

I agree. The PR72 is similar in penetration to the AquaRay Reef White 2000, except with lower PUR and a one year warranty versus the 5 year for the AquaRay

Carl

[leon]

Sounds like I should just go with the Amazonas. Not sure how I am going to hide this purchase from the missus but I will figure it out soon.

Here is what I got now. Take a look at the pics this is being fabricated in our shop today - not quite what we discussed but I am hoping it works. The large pump discharges into the middle cavity and once the cap is welded on will be forced back down into the disc which has 3/16" holes scattered all around and on the 1" sides. This will create an upside down shower effect from the bottom forcing the water up into the center tube which gravity feeds back to the sump. In the event of power/pump failure water level will only drop a few inches. Plan was to put the crushed coral and/or live rock on the bottom. I wouldn't get the benefit of the sand on the bottom but was thinking I could find a way to put a sand bed in the sump.

A second pump will be dedicated to the sump pulling from one end through the UV/Sand filter and back into the other end. Just a bypass system.

Any thoughts or have I lost my mind?

[devonjohnsgard]

lol.

Cant see the pictures! I will work with Orphek next week. It would be nice to know the diameter of the overflow and reef sleeve, So I we know how many diodes to take out of the LED.

[leon]

Test day. The Sun pump didn't perform as well as I had expected but I hope it will be sufficient. Ran the pump to the ground and got almost what the pump is rated for 3,400 GPH (rated for 3,700). Plumbed it to the upside down shower system and it dropped off to about 850 GPH and the velocity was not much as hoped for as you can see in the pics. This gives the tank about 5 turns/hr. Somewhere in the vast amounts of info on the AAP website I think I read something that challenging tanks may need upwards of 10 turns/hr. As you see with the gauge there is little to no pressure so I guess if it doesn't work I could always double the GPM or?

Back to the light-I reread the threads and am not clear on the final recommendation.


drive.google.com/open?id=0Bxc4Er6VZHIgMUxqX3ktc2hLUlE

drive.google.com/open?id=0Bxc4Er6VZHIgbHY0cWlCNUpBWnM

[leon]

Not sure how to post the pics - try this and if doesn't work let me know.


drive.google.com/open?id=0Bxc4Er6VZHIgX2xaUEFKREhqTUU

drive.google.com/open?id=0Bxc4Er6VZHIgaG9wS28tZmhGQ0U

[leon]

The overflow is 2" and the final sleeve is 4". (The shower triple tube is 2"x2-1/2"x3") Add a couple inches of live rock to the 4" sleeve and I am thinking it will be 8-10" diam. If the Amazonas is the way to go and it is capable of 15M deep could I just put the light high above the tank and not worry about blocking the inner LED's? If so how high above the tank? Remember I have a small closet above the tank plus attic space above that.

[Carl]

Dec 17, 2016 14:37:05 GMT -5 leon said:

Test day. The Sun pump didn't perform as well as I had expected but I hope it will be sufficient. Ran the pump to the ground and got almost what the pump is rated for 3,400 GPH (rated for 3,700). Plumbed it to the upside down shower system and it dropped off to about 850 GPH and the velocity was not much as hoped for as you can see in the pics. This gives the tank about 5 turns/hr. Somewhere in the vast amounts of info on the AAP website I think I read something that challenging tanks may need upwards of 10 turns/hr. As you see with the gauge there is little to no pressure so I guess if it doesn't work I could always double the GPM or?

Back to the light-I reread the threads and am not clear on the final recommendation.


drive.google.com/open?id=0Bxc4Er6VZHIgMUxqX3ktc2hLUlE

drive.google.com/open?id=0Bxc4Er6VZHIgbHY0cWlCNUpBWnM

The SunSun JTP 12000 3170 GPH Pump is a high efficiency pump, but it also does not have the "torque" for lifting as other pumps with similar flow rates at 0 head pressure(including the Sunsun JAP models).
As with large capacity air pumps (designed for running entire fish rooms) I have installed that are based on volume, but not pressure, using the largest possible diameter piping will increase flow rates.

5 times per hour combined with the other two pumps should provide the correct flow rate. The Rio inside the aquarium should provide well over 1000 gph since it will not be lifting water outside the aquarium.
Also note that the #1500 FSB Filter should be run at a flow rate of 525 to about 800 gph.

As for lighting, Devon provided two viable (IMO) options.
I personally think the Atlantik is a better fit (both in penetration and simply coverage since these will ring your middle overflow), but as Devon noted you would need three for good coverage. So the Amazona would just need one light (at the same cost as just one Atlantik), that would be dimmed, but this would also project light over the middle.


Carl

[leon]

I couldn't come up with a clean way for the 3rd pump inside the main tank so I was trying to create enough movement to keep the solids in suspension and still have sufficient flow through the main tank -thus the upside down shower. I will give it a shot with the Sun pump - worst case I would need something with torque/flow or have to force the 3rd pump. I will be sure to up size pipes to and from the main tank.

Ya the cost of 3 Atlantiks presents the challenge. How do I go about ordering the Amazonas?

I purchased an RO system from AAP and plan to do a float in the sump for water make up. Any words of advice on float/water make up systems?

[Carl]

I personally used toilet floats, often attached with either bulkheads or a pvc stand so as to keep it level.
However there are floats made for aquarium applications (we do not currently sell these)
www.eshopps.com/products/accessories/19085/

We do not currently stock this, but can special order this for $29.99

As for the pump, I personally like having redundancy, so at least two if not three pumps running.
If there is a way to plumb the Rio inside as we noted earlier, this would be my advice.

Devon will get back you as per the light, as he has been in contact with Orphek

Carl