Sanders Reef Tank

[devonjohnsgard]

I will go ahead and take a moment to go over my plan to see if it makes sense to solve some or all of the issues. We have a full machine shop, weld shop and deal with exotic metals compatible with corrosive fluids such as saltwater so fabrication is not an issue.



· Pump and filtration – About 10-15’ away from where the tanks sits I have poured a small concrete pad outside. This is where I plan to put the receiving tank, filtration, pump, heater and whatever other equipment. I will also build an enclosure to protect against the elements.

· Flow – The plan is to install a titanium double tube up the center of the tank. The inner tube will be the skimmer and overflow will gravity feed to the outdoor sump tank. From the sump and before/after filtration a pump will pick up and pump back into the tank through the outer shell of the double tube. The shell will have several discharge holes to aerate and create turbulence in the tank.

· Coral – The plan is to build a titanium structure that will be lowered over the double tube in the center of the tank and make attachment points for live rock to attach the coral.

· Wall cleaning-From where the tank sits, above is a closet that goes into the attic so I have 12’ of clear space above. My plan is to build a guided ball screw assembly 8+’ tall and attach a ring with some type of wiper/wall cleaner to the outside. We will program the ring to slowly go all the way to the bottom and return once or twice a day to clean the walls.

· Servicing the coral- With the clear space above we plan to attach a hoist that when the time comes we can hoist the outer structure completely out of the tank and service.



Attached is a sketch of the system. With all these systems I am hoping to overcome the challenges that this design faces but I am looking for some honest challenging input.



With that said some of the remaining challenges are the lighting, as you have noted. For this I was thinking of strategically placing submersible LED’s or if the light will go through the poly I another idea was to aim lights up from the base as well as the top.



Solids on the bottom. I was thinking of a perforated floor about an inch of the bottom with small rock on top and a way to pump from under the perforations.



Please let me know you thoughts after you have had a chance to review.

Attachments:

20161202123930013.pdf (43.22 KB)

[Carl]

I reviewed the information and talked with Devon at length yesterday

This is an interesting aquarium but other than larger is not too different from many very similar bullet shaped aquariums I worked with many years back.

This would be an interesting challenge, but due to the lack of surface area proportionate to water volume, I would considerate a very poor candidate for a marine aquarium and even more so a reef marine aquarium

You could utilize a large sump of about 25-30 gallons with a divider of glass that leaves a 1/4" gap from the bottom.
*Water would enter one side going through a sponge type filter that overhangs one side.
*Then into the one side filled with crushed coral crumbles/volcanic rock.
*Then water would pass under the glass into the next compartment where a pump such as the Rio 26 HF would pick up the water and send it to a TMC 1500 FSB filter filled with oolitic sand,.
*From there the water would go into a Vecton 25 Watt UV Sterilizer.
*From there the water would pass though a check valve and back to the aquarium
Also inside the sump, a large TMC V2 model 800 Protein skimmer would be attached (via HOB).

I would also add power head to the bottom of the aquarium to move water upward.

All this said, and please understand I am just being honest, but I would not recommend this as a marine aquarium.
I have built many very challenging aquariums, including in bars, but aquariums of these shapes simply are nothing but problems and often fail. It is not something that a lot of money would fix, rather you are up against some of the basics of what makes a healthy aquarium.
This is my professional opinion, I hope you understand.

Otherwise I can fill in further details, suggestions

Regards;
Carl

[leon]

Carl,

Thanks for the input-Devon had the same conclusion. I am hoping to get a better understanding of the concerns like surface area to water ratio and why how this makes this design non conducive for a marine tank? Not trying to reinvent the wheel but as you can see I am somewhat committed to making this work, like the rest of my projects shoot first then aim.

Further details and suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks for the help,

Leon

[devonjohnsgard]

I wonder if you can purposely make a larger sump and make sure there's good water tension broken in the sump. Use the extra room thinking about surface area. Maybe a 50 gal sump. When the water is brought in, make sure it's being broken. Maybe make it three chambers. First the lava rock, the next, heater, skimmer, and maybe a air pump to really break water, then the third chamber with the return pump.

I was thinking about it. Maybe a light you would want to consider....

[leon]

From previous conversations and this one I would take "lack of surface area" as the area open to atmosphere vs. volume of tank and the concern is not oxygenating and/or turning the water over enough thus the suggestion for a larger sump - all makes sense now. I just picked up a used shallow 5'long acrylic tank that I will turn into a sump configured as suggested. Would it help to aerate the water in the sump and/or the main tank? If so will this cause pump problems? What about air injection in the pressure line after the pump?

Interesting on the light suggestion do you think this will penetrate to the bottom of the tank? I would have shadow issues but may be a good start. Haven't looked yet but is this available through AAP?

[devonjohnsgard]

That larger sump would do the trick in my opinion and I would think there wouldn't be any issue if the aeration is away from pumps intakes (return pump and skimmer pump), so maybe make 4 chambers if you have such a large sump. Lava rock, to aeration & heater, to skimmer, to return pump. I wouldn't try to aerate in the return line, that sounds more complicated.

That light is the largest LED spotlight out, so if it doesn't work (just came out this year), no one directional light would. I would think it would give plenty of energy even at the bottom of the tank. As long as you get 150-250ish PAR, you will be able to grow anything.

AAP does have the TMC lights, but they would only grow things about 30-36 inch down. They're some of the most premier lights out, but they wont help lighting the bottom of the tank for hard corals.

[devonjohnsgard]

btw, if that Orphek light is something your interested in, AAP should be able to get it in for you. I do wonder if the sleeve that all the coral will be mounted on will some how block a lot of light coming out of the spot light.

[Carl]

Dec 5, 2016 17:55:20 GMT -5 leon said:

From previous conversations and this one I would take "lack of surface area" as the area open to atmosphere vs. volume of tank and the concern is not oxygenating and/or turning the water over enough thus the suggestion for a larger sump - all makes sense now. I just picked up a used shallow 5'long acrylic tank that I will turn into a sump configured as suggested. Would it help to aerate the water in the sump and/or the main tank? If so will this cause pump problems? What about air injection in the pressure line after the pump?

These both are good ideas IMO

However you still need to strategically place power heads to move water at lower depth of this aquarium

Remember, we are trying to duplicate the ocean, which has strong horizontal currents at the depths we are attempting to imitate. This is the problem with shape such as this, we are attempting to duplicate in an environment that favors only vertical water movement.
Small fish that are not open water fish would also be suggested, as open water fish would get stressed in such an environment.

Carl

[leon]

Sounds like we are getting somewhere. I will configure the sump as suggested. In regards to the power heads and currents what do you think if I use a larger pump capable of more head pressure. I would discharge through a few strategically placed holes on the outer tube on the lower third - this would constantly push the water from bottom to top and down the inner tube. If this sounds doable what pump(s) would you suggest?

Please see what AAP can do on sourcing the light. I could slightly flare the live rock/coral into kind of a cone shape so bottom catches some light. The other thought was submersible LED lights. Any experience or thoughts? I could have the submersible's travel very, very, very slowly with the wiper but how long would the concentrated light need to be directed to the coral?

Last piece of the puzzle is the solids on the bottom of the tank. If I direct flow downwards onto the bottom would this keep the solids in suspension in the hopes that the upward current would eventually flush them to the sump?

[devonjohnsgard]

Carl is out, so I got to chat with him for a minute about what could be done. Take a look at the picture attached. We'd suggest a larger Rio 32HF in the tank with PVC plumbing on the intake with holes drilled. This would be best so things such as invertebrates don't get sucked into the intake. This would also help the solids issue, by picking them up and putting back into the water column.

On the outtake side of the pump, you'd have PVC going up towards the top and also a T PVC to a outlet with holes that goes about 1/3 up the tank. You'd need a control ball valve on this side of the outlet to help create pressure or all the flow will just go out this side of the outlet. I hope the picture shows what we're talking about.

On the return that comes from the sump, make sure this doesn't go to deep back into the aquarium, just incase there's an issue and the check valve fails also. You wouldn't want to drain the tank.

We'll check into lighting.

There's some more direction for you!

Attachments:

[leon]

And I thought I was artistically challenged! Ha. So if I understand the suggestion is for a second submersible pump to pull from a perforated floor and discharge through a perforated column? This would be an independent system to the pump at the sump correct?

[Carl]

Dec 6, 2016 18:07:29 GMT -5 leon said:

And I thought I was artistically challenged! Ha. So if I understand the suggestion is for a second submersible pump to pull from a perforated floor and discharge through a perforated column? This would be an independent system to the pump at the sump correct?

Yes, this would be independent.
This is in part for redundancy in case of failure or one or the other pump

One pumps job though is primarily in tank circulation while the other is filtration

Having live rock and a sand bed with oolitic sand and a 1/4" layer of #3 crushed coral on top will provide some "natural" in tank bio filtration too.

Carl

[devonjohnsgard]

Dec 6, 2016 18:07:29 GMT -5 leon said:

And I thought I was artistically challenged! Ha.

Ha. That's what 30 seconds of draw time will get ya.

Yes, it would be a separate system.

Looks like we have some forward movement on this project!

[leon]

I have a couple pumps on order from AAP and will do some R&D next week on the proposed system. Carl suggested a bed of live rock with oolitic sand and a 1/4" layer of #3 crushed coral on top. If I went this route wouldn't there be a problem of sucking the sand up in the re-circ pump?

Any news on the Orpheck light? Do you have experience with submersible LED's? My concern with the proposed Orpheck light is that if it were centered above the tank we would only get to use the outer portion as there will be a fairly large pipe column with attached live rock. Almost need the same power in a ring type light.

[devonjohnsgard]

Dec 9, 2016 15:47:50 GMT -5 leon said:

I have a couple pumps on order from AAP and will do some R&D next week on the proposed system. Carl suggested a bed of live rock with oolitic sand and a 1/4" layer of #3 crushed coral on top. If I went this route wouldn't there be a problem of sucking the sand up in the re-circ pump?

Any news on the Orpheck light? Do you have experience with submersible LED's? My concern with the proposed Orpheck light is that if it were centered above the tank we would only get to use the outer portion as there will be a fairly large pipe column with attached live rock. Almost need the same power in a ring type light.

There shouldn't really be a problem. The PVC intake of the pump is going to slow a lot of the flow anyways, so that's on thing. The sand should stay to the bottom of the layers, being that it's the finest too. So the crush corals and live rock will lock a lot of the sand down also.

For the Orphek light. I have not contacted them yet. I will do this Monday. I have the same concern you do about the center being block. I was going to get some measurement to know how much is being blocked and see if Orphek has a solution too. I'll let you know asap.

[Carl]

Dec 9, 2016 15:47:50 GMT -5 leon said:

I have a couple pumps on order from AAP and will do some R&D next week on the proposed system. Carl suggested a bed of live rock with oolitic sand and a 1/4" layer of #3 crushed coral on top. If I went this route wouldn't there be a problem of sucking the sand up in the re-circ pump?

As Devon noted, the pvc pipe connected to the intake with holes should cut back on any strong suction at any one point.
This is also a reason I utilize a layer of more coarse #3 crushed coral on top of the #00 Oolitic sand bed.
Embedding this intake in approximately 1" diameter crushed coral crumbles can add a measure more of security that sand will not be drawn in. This also will hide the "ugly pipe.
I would attempt to "ring" the overflow pipe that extends from the bottom to the top with this intake pipe , as this would not only look better, but provide better flow, and less of a chance of sand intake if properly positioned.

This picture form my Marine Aquarium Basics article shows a Return Manifold

You would basically doing the opposite and this would instead be an intake manifold connected to the Rio Pump, which would then return water directionally near the bottom as well as the top



Carl

[leon]

Now it makes sense the intake ring will sit on top of the bed of sand sandwiched between the coarse coral and sand. Will be working on the sump to divide into the 4 chambers suggested earlier - any tricks to that? Sump is 60" x 18" x 18" divided equally with the 1st chamber wall (lava rock chamber) from top to about a 1/4" from bottom and the remaining walls from about half way up and sealed at the bottom?

[Carl]

Dec 10, 2016 15:25:39 GMT -5 leon said:

Now it makes sense the intake ring will sit on top of the bed of sand sandwiched between the coarse coral and sand. Will be working on the sump to divide into the 4 chambers suggested earlier - any tricks to that? Sump is 60" x 18" x 18" divided equally with the 1st chamber wall (lava rock chamber) from top to about a 1/4" from bottom and the remaining walls from about half way up and sealed at the bottom?

The only thought (trick) that comes to mind is with each chamber, you want the water to flow through the entire chamber.
So to accomplish this, each glass divider should be opposite the previous. What I mean is that if one chamber is top to bottom, but for 1/4" from the bottom, the next should be top to bottom but for 1/4" from the top



Carl

[devonjohnsgard]

I've sent an email to Orphek. Waiting to hear back.

[devonjohnsgard]

Orphek is checking to see if the center LEDs can be disconnected so power is not being used that doesn't need to be used in the center.