My Jack

[cptcaveman]

Well, the recharge didn't kill them. But I think me cleaning my canister started a new cycle. I noticed my tank was getting cloudy, so I did a 5G change yesterday and today, and will do a 25% tomorrow (normal cleaning day). I ran out of strips and had to go to Walmart and get some Tetra (yes I know, but WM was close). The strips read 20-30 Nitrates, 0 Nitrites, PH 8.7 (maybe more), Hardness 150-ish, Alkalinity 180-ish. I didn't check Ammonia due to Prime.

I'm hoping the the water change tomorrow helps things. I'll probably change it and not add anything for hk/gh. I've been adding about a cap of Prime to help detox.

Any suggestions, and do you know of a "cheap" water test kit?

[Carl]

Jun 11, 2016 20:09:04 GMT -5 cptcaveman said:

Well, the recharge didn't kill them. But I think me cleaning my canister started a new cycle. I noticed my tank was getting cloudy, so I did a 5G change yesterday and today, and will do a 25% tomorrow (normal cleaning day). I ran out of strips and had to go to Walmart and get some Tetra (yes I know, but WM was close). The strips read 20-30 Nitrates, 0 Nitrites, PH 8.7 (maybe more), Hardness 150-ish, Alkalinity 180-ish. I didn't check Ammonia due to Prime.

I'm hoping the the water change tomorrow helps things. I'll probably change it and not add anything for hk/gh. I've been adding about a cap of Prime to help detox.

Any suggestions, and do you know of a "cheap" water test kit?

API makes decent inexpensive test kits.
sine time was always important, I generally used the 5 in 1 test kit and found its accuracy reasonable. If anything was off, then I might use a better test kit or test meter

Here is a Resource for the 5 in 1 test kit:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquariumtestkit.html#5in1

For top notch testers:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/HannaTesters.html

For more about Test Kits, this is a good article to read:
www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2007/02/aquarium-test-kits.html

Your pH seems either off in the test or extremely high

Do you test your water source prior to adding to the aquarium?

Carl

[cptcaveman]

I checked my tap water and everything is at pretty much 0 but the PH 6.8. when i cleaned the canister i used tap water on everything but the matrix. i was thinking the BB in the tank would be good enough to keep the tank cycled. but maybe not.

Ive also been doing a complete deep clean of the gravel and almost had no waste coming up. would that hurt by sucking up BB?

[troybtj]

If you are seeing Nitrates rising, then you shouldn't have an issue.

I have the Seachem Ammo-Alert badges on mine and love them. ~$9 ea, last a year, work with prime in the aquarium, and pay for themselves any time a cycle or ammonia spike is happening, far earlier warning than fish getting ill!

For the rest, I have the drops test kit, but I honestly use the API 5 in 1 dipsticks for most everything. I've compared it with the drops, and it's not exact, but you don't need exact for most stuff, mostly a go / no-go gauge. You don't want to see pink on nitrites, and very little pink on nitrates if you don't have plants, etc. Doesn't show ammonia or chlorine, but prime removes those anyway, and the ammo alert badge gives you the ammonia in near realtime continuously.

Your cleaning may have removed some sludge that was being a "nitrate factory", which increased the bacteria amount in the tank. Now that it is unneeded, it will be cloudy for a few days. I just let mine settle, but for those in a hurry, I'd suggest a flocculant (water clarifier that makes the 'bits' stick together until they are large enough to be trapped by the filter), like Seachem Clarity or similar product.

Give it a few days first and it may go away on it's own, but there's another thread going on where a member has had continual ongoing cloudiness that is also being worked on if you'd like to read what has been done in that one.

[devonjohnsgard]

You have a pretty high KH and must have a light bio-load. It's making your pH swing up. Are you adding buffers? Maybe some rocks?

[devonjohnsgard]

or the tests are a little off.

[cptcaveman]

I think it's both. troy mentioned awhile back when I first setup my tank that Tetra isn't known for the best quality. But I've also added backing soda for Ph and Epsom Salt for gh/kh, I'm thinking I have added too much. I have removed 15 gallons in the past two days with adding any of either, and the readings have barely lowered.

[Carl]

Jun 13, 2016 19:10:41 GMT -5 cptcaveman said:

I think it's both. troy mentioned awhile back when I first setup my tank that Tetra isn't known for the best quality. But I've also added backing soda for Ph and Epsom Salt for gh/kh, I'm thinking I have added too much. I have removed 15 gallons in the past two days with adding any of either, and the readings have barely lowered.

This is one reason I do not recommend Baking Soda

Here is an excerpt from (please give this entire article a read too):
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumKH.html#khbuffers

"Explanation of common Buffers used to raise Alkalinity (KH & eventually pH)

*Baking Soda (NaHCO3): Is essentially just Sodium bicarbonate and will raise KH, but it can easily be overdosed and does not maintain as a stable a KH or pH

*Sea Chem Marine Buffer: This is multi-ingredient product that not only raises KH and pH, but also GH as it is very balanced in its mineral balance. Due to the ingredients contained there in it will NOT raise pH past 8.3- 8.4 even when over dosed. When use in FW, small amounts should be used so as to slowly raised pH and KH as if overdosed you can raise pH to 8.3.

*SeaChem Malawi/Victoria Buffer: This is the same product as Marine Buffer and will also not raise pH past 8.4, even when overdosed (as with Marine Buffer, I have used this product for many freshwater applications such as Livebearers & Goldfish).

Product Resource: SeaChem Malawi/Victoria Buffer; 7.7 to 8.4 Alkaline Buffer

*SeaChem Tanganyika Buffer: again a similar product to Marine and Malawi Buffer with additional necessary mineral, however it will raise pH to 9.0 when used full strength.

*SeaChem Gold Buffer: This once again is basically the same formula as the previously noted buffers, just the concentrations differ slightly as does the amount you would use.
One can easily substitute Malawi Buffer and simply use less for goldfish or livebearers. What is also noteworthy is many based on poor Amazon Review Information, believe this is a product you simply add and it magically buffers to 7.8 PH, when in fact, as with all buffers you have to add a specific amount to match your unique aquarium environment!

*SeaChem Alkaline Buffer: This is more straight forward KH buffer that has less added minerals when these are not desired (often by planted or softwater aquarium keepers). Alkaline Buffer will continue to increase pH to 7.8 (or as high as 8.5 with correct usage), however it still is more stable and moves pH much less dramatically than baking soda making it still a much better choice in FW.
Alkaline Buffer is the preferred method (combined with Acid Buffer) for use with stabilizing Reverse Osmosis Water in lower pH/soft water aquariums. "

Carl

[troybtj]

What amount of baking soda and epsom salt were added? What was your GH / KH before you started?

That, in and of itself shouldn't cause cloudiness, unless you crossed the line where a different sort of bacteria live in higher pH water compared to lower pH water. This is typically a 1 point pH swing crossing 7.0 (6.5 to 7.5, for example).

IIRC, you had a zero KH last fall and were having problems keeping the pH from going too low?

[cptcaveman]

Exactly. it got so acidic it was eatting the paint off the decorations. i checked it a few months ago and everything was ok so i didnt really bother checking. i was adding about 1/2 tablespoon of both every week.

[troybtj]

Were you changing the water each week? I guess my question is were you adding the Sodium (Baking Soda) and Magnesium (Epsom Salt) at water changes, or just every week?

I don't add anything unless I see a need from one of those dip test strips, GH I don't really worry about here, it's pretty much always 200+, I just keep KH around 120-ish, a sort of light forest green color on the API Dip Strips. If it is under that, I add 1 Teaspoon of Seachem Alkaline buffer, and dip stick it the next day, that usually bumps it up around 40ppm or so in my 38/40 gallon.

1 Tablespoon a week of Bicarbonate may have the KH very high (and the pH). If the pH is the problem, which I don't really see it being if it hasn't changed much, you could add the Seachem Acid Buffer which converts KH into CO₂.

Weekly 10%-20% water changes without adding anything will also lower the KH and GH back down, but as said, I don't see the pH being an issue unless it was a recent drastic swing that was about the same time as the cloudiness.

[Carl]

I should also note that I do not recommend the use of Epsom Salts for GH. This would not maintain an ion balanced mineral level in your aquarium

From Aquarium Chemistry Article (please read)

"That said you would only want to add about 1/4- 1/2 teaspoon per 5 gallons (18 liters). Although useful for therapeutic reasons, magnesium and sulfates in particular are best introduced as part of a greater trace element balance in an aquarium. I ONLY recommend Epsom Salts for therapeutic aquarium treatment, NOT on an ongoing basis.
The best use is 1/4- 1/2 teaspoon per 1 gallon of a 30 minute Fish Bath."

I honestly have never figured out the reason as the the why of these tests and observations, but I do know from multiple trials and observations that the use of Epsom salts for short term uses such as baths, Brine Shrimp holding tanks, even hospital tanks yielded positive positive results. HOWEVER, long term results were exactly the opposite!

Carl

[cptcaveman]

Jun 14, 2016 19:39:44 GMT -5 troybtj said:

Were you changing the water each week? I guess my question is were you adding the Sodium (Baking Soda) and Magnesium (Epsom Salt) at water changes, or just every week?

I don't add anything unless I see a need from one of those dip test strips, GH I don't really worry about here, it's pretty much always 200+, I just keep KH around 120-ish, a sort of light forest green color on the API Dip Strips. If it is under that, I add 1 Teaspoon of Seachem Alkaline buffer, and dip stick it the next day, that usually bumps it up around 40ppm or so in my 38/40 gallon.

1 Tablespoon a week of Bicarbonate may have the KH very high (and the pH). If the pH is the problem, which I don't really see it being if it hasn't changed much, you could add the Seachem Acid Buffer which converts KH into CO₂.

Weekly 10%-20% water changes without adding anything will also lower the KH and GH back down, but as said, I don't see the pH being an issue unless it was a recent drastic swing that was about the same time as the cloudiness.



I've added just a tad bit more than that   Like a tablespoon of both every week during water changes for about 4 months. I thought that was right, but it was/is actually a teaspoon that i read. 

I can already see an improvement in the fish, they're more active and not hiding as much.

I'll check ammonia tomorrow and see where it's at since the Prime should be gone by then.

[cptcaveman]

Jun 15, 2016 9:44:11 GMT -5 Carl said:

I should also note that I do not recommend the use of Epsom Salts for GH. This would not maintain an ion balanced mineral level in tour aquarium

From Aquarium Chemistry Article (please read)

"That said you would only want to add about 1/4- 1/2 teaspoon per 5 gallons (18 liters). Although useful for therapeutic reasons, magnesium and sulfates in particular are best introduced as part of a greater trace element balance in an aquarium. I ONLY recommend Epsom Salts for therapeutic aquarium treatment, NOT on an ongoing basis.
The best use is 1/4- 1/2 teaspoon per 1 gallon of a 30 minute Fish Bath."

I honestly have never figured out the reason as the the why of these tests and observations, but I do know from multiple trials and observations that the use of Epsom salts for short term uses such as baths, Brine Shrimp holding tanks, even hospital tanks yielded positive positive results. HOWEVER, long term results were exactly the opposite!

Carl

I have no doubt you are correct. Like I replied above, I can already see that they like the water better with less in it. What "cheap" minerals can I add instead?

[Carl]

Jun 15, 2016 20:04:05 GMT -5 cptcaveman said:

I have no doubt you are correct. Like I replied above, I can already see that they like the water better with less in it. What "cheap" minerals can I add instead?

The mist simple way that also constantly adds mineral Cations is with AAP Wonder Shells

AAP/SeaChem Cichlid Salt can add these minerals, KH Buffers, and some sodium Chloride too
Ditto Malawi Buffer.

Resources:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/MedicatedWonderShell.html
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Seachem.html#cichlid

This section of the Chemistry article might be helpful:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumKH.html#tips


This article might be helpful too:
www.fishbeginner.info/home/aquarium-gh-kh-ph-chemistry-what-to-know/

Carl

[cptcaveman]

Thanks. I think I'll look around and give one of the shells a try.

I tested my ammonia before a water change and it was 0. After water change my nitrates are 20, nitrites 0, GH 75-180 ish, KH 80-120 ish, PH 7.8 ish.

[cptcaveman]

I thought I would throw up some newer pics. Also does anyone have any experience with using JUST ceramic rings in a canister? I mean just rings on all trays and nothing else.

Attachments:

[childofiam]

The problem with just using bio ring in a canister is that there is no other media like sponges or floss to hold the solid waste so that it has time to break down. The key to a bio field working properly is that there are no particles to flow buy the bio-field. You should always have pre filters, sponges, floss and/or supper floss pads ahead of the bio-field to catch the junk. Some sold wast breaks down fast and others don't so this is why you need to replace the floss every month and the sponges every three months.
On the other hand... if you provided a pre filter like the, "Hydro Sponge 5 Stackable" then you could do what you propose but, IMO... this all would be a wast because, you bio-field will only grow to the bio-load in your tank. The cycle process completes itself when it has the right amount of bacteria to consume the present wast produced by your bio-load, no extra bacteria will grow until the present bacteria dies off, so you fill the canister with just bio-rings then you will have more bio-rings present that are of no use.

It is my opinion that the less you have inside of your Aquarium the better the environment is for your fish and it is easer to hide things like the heater, input - output tubes with plants, driftwood... and also provides the natural underwater view of their world that relieves stress to the provider.

You have a beautiful Aquarium...

Richard

[devonjohnsgard]

Agreed. You want prefiltration to allow the rings to store fine debris, which has the beneficial bacteria.

[Carl]

Good points!

I would also add that rather than a filter with predominately ceramic rings which are almost 100% for nitrification, I would suggest using Volcanic rock which not only is slightly better for mechanical filtration, it is much better for bio filtration including de-nitrification which the ceramic rings will not do

Resource:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Volcanicrock.html

Carl