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Post by goldenpuon on Sept 5, 2008 21:45:18 GMT -5
I have a betta fry, (the sole survivor a saprolegnia outbreak from a few weeks earlier) that is about 6 weeks old. I have been feeding it BBS for about 5 or 6 days now and have been doing water changes (per say 95%) daily for even longer. I fed it shortly after I added more brine shrimp eggs since my population went down (but didn't die off) and I accidently fed it some brine shrimp eggs with along with the BBS. Shortly after that, I noticed a brownish area by its vent. It seems smaller today like ingesting brine shrimp eggs were the cause but I am still worried. I have encountered septicaemia once and I really don't want it to happen now, especially for my only betta fry that survived out of the whole spawn. The fry sems to be acting ok but then again, fry tend to either be healthy or die off pretty fast with not as much in between as with older fish. I would also like to note that I have not been rinsing the BBS before I add them to the 1 gallon container the fry is in. I take water and brine shrimp straight from the culture and squirt it into the betta fry's home. I only do this since I feel like it would be cruel and possibly kill the brine shrimp to rinse them first in cold tapwater. The water has been slightly cloudy every so often but I am working on cutting down on the amount of BBS I feed. So is this brownish or eddish (I cannot tell) by its vent serious? It seems to be slightly more on one side. Either way, I will be avoiding feeding my betta fry brine shrimp eggs along with the brine shrimp it eats in the future. Thank you.
Renee
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Post by Carl on Sept 6, 2008 0:38:10 GMT -5
Renee, you can try dipping the BBS (in the Shrimp net) in some aquarium water that has been removed from the tank so as to be uesd as a rinse. Then just throw this water away. This performs two tasks; *It rinses the BBS in water they will be going in *This also becomes a small water change each time you feed. I cannot honestly say if the problem you are seeing is caused by the Brine Shrimp eggs, but have doubts here. Certainly pollution (assuming poor water quality from over feeding or BBS water) can play a role in disease, especially anaerobic bacteria such as Aeromonas. This definitely does not describe Septicemia which is not a disease rather a systemic infection (generally in the bloodstream) caused by many pathogens including Aeromonas. See this article for more about Aeromonas: Treatment and Identification of Aeromonas and Vibrio in AquariumsI would try the dip rinse and keep up with water changes. Also if you have the test strips you mentioned many threads back on the old forum, please post theresults of your tests. GOOD LUCK! Carl
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Post by goldenpuon on Sept 6, 2008 9:28:49 GMT -5
Thank you so much. I will be testing a little later on today when I test one of my adult betta's containers and have time to cut the strips. (Sorry, I have to take a shower soon so I can only be on a little while.)
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Post by goldenpuon on Sept 6, 2008 13:46:07 GMT -5
I just tested and my results were a bit strange...
Ammonia: .5 Nitrite: 0 Nitrate: under 10 PH: 7.0 (I estimate that by the color because the color pad was a little messed up from when I cut the strip in 1/2) Hardness: about 170 Alkilinity: 120
I also tested the other betta's area that had slightly cloudy water and the ammonia also tested to .5 yet the nitrite was 0 and nitrates really low. Curious, I tested both my goldfish tanks for ammonai and it also tested .5! Yet the nitrate was also 0 and the nitrate was slightly lower than nomral due to my recent increase in water changes.
Now I am wondering if there is something wrong with my ammonia test strips...
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Post by Carl on Sept 6, 2008 15:51:00 GMT -5
Your results are a bit strange.
Your pH and KH are somewhat unusual, however not immpossible. Your numbers indicate to me (assuming accuracy) that you have high DOC (dissovled organic compounds) and organic mulm.
You can a have slightly elevated ammonia and low nitrates if there are issues in the nitrogen cycle, an improperly cleaned aquarium, and/or high amounts of DOC that have not fully cycled.
Your slight cloud also indicates this as well as your good KH, yet low pH.
Carl
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Post by goldenpuon on Sept 6, 2008 18:45:24 GMT -5
Well, I change the water everyday in my betta fry's home. The strange PH shouldn't be that much of a concern, the strip was a little off color and it kind of got messed up when I cut my test strip in half. When the pad gets a little messed up on my teste strips, a lot of times the results are off color a red pad ends up being purple. The PH could have been anywhere from 7.0-7.3 (based on ths strip) or even higher since the pad wasn't quite right.
Sorry to get you on this further but there is basically no waste in the betta fry's home. I switch containers and dump the (95% of the water every night. Suzie recommended 100% daily water changes for young bettas so that is what I am doing.
Also the fact that the ammonia read .5 in my 2 goldfish tanks, my 1 gallon with my older betta in it, and also the container holding the 6 week old fry is a bit strange. I have never been a big tester of ammonia but these results are a little strange. Especially for all four of these tanks to test .5. The nitrites in all my tanks were 0 too. Maybe it is inaccurate test strips or unusual water chemistry. Also, none of my fish are showing any signs of ammonia poisoning. I had ammonia poisoning happen a lot when I first started with fish but not in a long time.
I've learning about chemistry a lot in Honors Chem. I have a test Monday on elements and compounds. For fish related compounds,
ammonium is NH4 I believe with a charge from one proton of +1 Nitrate is NO3 with a charge of -1 from one elcetron. Nitrite is NO2 with a charge of -1 from one electron. Silicone is Si with a charge of +4 from four protons. Carbon is C with a charge of +4 from four protons. Nitride is N with a charge of -3 from three electrons.
Then there is even more fish related like Phosporus and Phosporide....
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Post by Carl on Sept 6, 2008 19:05:18 GMT -5
I understand this Renee, and your points about lack of signs of ammoina poisoning kind of misses my point as .5 ammonia will not cause any signs of ammonia poisoning. All I was doing was looking for trends, such as a failing nitrogen cycle. Your cleaning schedule is excelent for fry rearing Also as you noted your strips may be the problem, but I was/am operating under the assumption that they are accurate. Please do not get me wrong, even with these readings, they are good readings in general, but again I am looking for trends here and your slight cloud lends itself to trends (does not prove it though). I guess my main concern is that somehow during cleaning you may have "over cleaned" your filter media (excessive rinsings, etc.), of coarse I do not know this and I am certainly not trying to say your tank is not well maintained. Some diseases such as Columaris do not need as poor of water conditions to get started in afish, often simple stress can be a factor, but since you noted Septicemia (which is more commonly caused by Aeromonas), I wnated to explore water conditions that favor Aeromoas which is often a tank with a weak nitrogen cycle and low oxygen levels (which a cloudy tank will produce). Carl
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Post by goldenpuon on Sept 6, 2008 21:07:27 GMT -5
Well, I think for the betta fry, the cloudy water was caused by feeding too many BBS. (I have reduced feeding) As for the male adult betta, I am not sure. His container keeps getting fuzzy stuff growing on veen the most minute piece of uneaten food. The reason why there is sometimes some uneaten food is I can getting to the end of my conatiner of flake food so the pieces are really tiny. The fish don't get around to eating the tiniest pieces. I'll have to switch over to my new container of Thera tropical fish food soon.
By the way, the cloudiness was not that bad in either of betta's home. It was just a little bit and I seem to really notice any sort of cloudiness in my water. I just hope that tiny brown area on my betta fry is not something to be worried about.
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Post by eve on Sept 6, 2008 21:12:42 GMT -5
any time you find test results strange when testing from the tanks, check also the water source, as example tapwater and see how the results differ
there are many other factors which would make test results differ as example having a filter in the tank or not temperature of the water and the room tested in decorations in the tank Co2 or not ferts used or not what food you use
the list can go on and on
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Post by goldenpuon on Sept 6, 2008 22:14:23 GMT -5
Well, I just realized I used ammonia lock in my 2 goldfish tanks so that could make ammonia results inaccurate. But I haven't used it in either of the betta containers since I changed all of their water. It is strange. If results continue to be like this, I will go return the test strips and get my money back, then rebuy it.
Also, for an update on the fry, the brownish thing in it is gone now. It was probably nothing or brine shrimp eggs which I will be careful no to put in with my fish in the future. I'll keep an eye out.
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Post by goldenpuon on Sept 6, 2008 22:17:03 GMT -5
By the way, thanks for the response Eve. It's very helpful. You're right, test results can be influenced greatly. The Ph from my tap is realy low, (about 6.6-6.8) so it tends to be low in my tanks if I don't boost it enough with alkiline buffer. I always have to be extra careful when I change water for my guppies because of this.
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Post by eve on Sept 6, 2008 23:01:21 GMT -5
By the way, thanks for the response Eve. It's very helpful. You're right, test results can be influenced greatly. The Ph from my tap is realy low, (about 6.6-6.8) so it tends to be low in my tanks if I don't boost it enough with alkiline buffer. I always have to be extra careful when I change water for my guppies because of this. with what are you buffering it? hope not with chemicals there are natural ways to make it higher as well as lower one of the higher ones are crushed up corals which you can put into your filter this will keep your pH stable another one is limestone as well right now, nor more come to mind but the following article might help you a bit The chemistry of Tank decor
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Post by murdock6701 on Sept 6, 2008 23:20:27 GMT -5
great article, thanks Eve!
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Post by jonv on Sept 6, 2008 23:40:45 GMT -5
Good points made here by Eve, but right here on the site Renee, I think you should also consider reviewing Carl's article also. I have personally employed this article in all my African tanks, though your tank is not trying to hit the same GH or KH as mine would, it still covers several aspects you would want to keep informed on, as well as the overall process, what is going on, and why it is important to know. It's always good to have more then one article to go by too. I was actually explaining this to Carl on the phone today, how I view things. I might have one way of writing out something to explain it, be totally correct, but the choice of words used, might not click with you personally, and you might find Carl's style of information more easy to take in, or you might just as well find Eve's style of information easier too. There really isn't any right or wrong way, it's all about how you take in the information and apply it from my point of view. Take a look at these, if you already haven't please. www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumKH.htmlwww.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2006/12/how-do-fish-drink.htmlI can't say I've found anything directly negative using chemicals per se, and I will also say, I'm not a huge fan of them, and any chemical I'd mention, I'd have to say is one I have found very useful. If you don't find that helpful and feel crushed coral is a better option for you, that's not really wrong either. Just my .02 on it.
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Post by eve on Sept 7, 2008 0:16:50 GMT -5
great article, thanks Eve! you're very welcome jon- the only reason i added this article in here, is because it's a good one, you know it and i know it and i'm still trying to find my way around on Car's blog
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Post by jonv on Sept 7, 2008 1:34:32 GMT -5
Actually, I have no clue what's on it. Our "friends" there have it so I can't view anything on the site or related to the site, so I can't truthfully say yes or no on that ;D
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Post by eve on Sept 7, 2008 4:47:28 GMT -5
lol, you actually got me to laugh anyway, here is a copy of the article By Ashleigh Copyright 2007 This is a subject that has interested me for some time and I have been wanting to write an article about this. First, however, I feel the need to gather more information from others about their experiences and knowledge on this topic. I can illustrate what I have come to understand from my own experiences and research. I strive to decorate my tanks for more than just looks. I want to achieve the most suitable atmosphere for the fish that I choose to keep based on their natural environments, as well as affecting the water chemistry to be appropriate for their needs, and still have it look good. I will demonstrate my personal conclusions in a comparison of two of my tanks that are on opposite ends on the scale of water chemistry and I will compare them both to my tap water. Then we will discuss how we reached such different results on the chemistry scale. Tap WaterPH (potential for hydrogen): 7.2 Alkalinity: 120 Hardness: 120 KH (carbonate hardness): 72 African Cichlid Tank PH (potential for hydrogen): 8.6 Alkalinity: 320 Hardness: 120 KH (carbonate hardness): 214 FW Planted CommunityPH (potential for hydrogen): 6.4 Alkalinity: 60 Hardness: 25 KH (carbonate hardness): 36 African Cichlid Tank[/u] The decor that I have chosen to use that naturally raises the PH, KH, and Alkalinity include Dolomite sand which is very high in calcium content, hence the high KH which in turn affects the pH, an assortment of sea shells which are also made of calcium and slowly releases carbonates into the water as they dissolve over time, limestone and marble, a small portion of African Rift Lake Salts added during water changes that are not actually salts at all but are mainly a combination of calcium and magnesium with some other trace minerals. This PH, KH, and Alkalinity is suitable for these fish and is achieved by the decor that I use with the exception of the Rift Lake Salts which I have been slowly weaning them off of since I converted their tank from plastic plants and decor to all natural substances. I believe I can cut out the Rift Lake salts completely and still maintain an appropriate PH, KH, and Alkalinity. Freshwater Planted CommunityThis tank is pretty heavily planted and well stocked with a variety of different tetras, gouramis, botias, assorted catfish, and many Malaysian needlepoint snails. I inject CO2 into this tank at approximately one bubble unit per 4 seconds, and I light it with a double compact fluorescent. The PH is drastically lower as is the alkalinity and KH due to all of the live plants that are consuming carbon dioxide during the day, and releasing it at night which utilizes the hydrogen creating a PH lowering, acidifying, and water softening result. For a more detailed explanation see the topic Water Chemistry. Also I have a large piece of bogwood in this tank which lowers the PH as well and has an acidifying, softening effect on the water, in other words creating a natural buffer. The following lists demonstrate some non-inert substances for affecting the chemistry of your tank on two opposite sides of the water parameter scale. PH Lowering/Water Softening/Acid Buffer Substances and DecorLive Plants Bog Wood Mopane Drift Wood Peat Moss PH Buffering/KH and Alkalinity Raising Substances and DecorDolomite, Calcite, Aragonite sands Crushed Coral Sea Shells (slowly over time) Ocean Rock Limestone Marble Tufa Rock All of these substances affect the water parameters by simply placing them in the tank, however, other techniques may be used as well such as putting crushed coral or reversely peat moss into your filter unit to affect the H/KH/Alkalinity/Hardness in the filtration process, or you may soak these substances in buckets with the new water that will be added to the tank during water changes. I, myself, prefer to utilize these substances as attractive displays in my tanks that will have the combined effects of ideal conditions for the fish such as building caves with pH raising rocks for example for territorial cave dwelling fish such as African Cichlids, as well as nice substrates that are suitable for the fish and nice to look at like black calcite, white dolomite sands, or crushed coral for example. Bogwood and Mopane woods make very nice centerpieces and accents in a tank as well as add to a great environment for tropical fish with low PH/KH and soft acidic water requirements such as many tetras, discus, angelfish, botias, SA cichlids and more. This also provides an ideal range for aquatic plants to thrive in and to participate in the natural balance of water parameters in the tank. The point that I am wanting to make with all of this is that it is quite possible to multitask the purposes of your tank decor to benefit a range of elements in providing the most suitable environment for you fish, as well as a naturally beautiful aquatic display.
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Post by Carl on Sept 7, 2008 10:26:02 GMT -5
You made some good points Eve as did the article you added as it did put things in a different perspective. Thanks Jon for pointing out about my articles, especially the two in particular as these are two I have spents many hours in revisions and chemistry (in particlar since this was important for the succes of my previous business) was where I spent a lot of time in research and testing. Eve; beside the links from EA ( Everything Aquatic; Information Links) you can also link directly to my Aquarium Information web site or the Aquarium and Pond Answers. Within the Aquarium Information site there are many subsites as well such as the Pond Information SiteBack to the subject at hand, Renee I would also read this article since you noted using Ammo Lock about water conditioners: Aquarium Answers; Water ConditionersThe points about tap water are good too, as CO2 in tap water will gas out which is why tap water should not even be tested for 30 after removing from the tap. My tap water also tests at about 6.8 after gassing out due to the fact our water is of volcanic soil origin (which makes for more acid water, little buffering). All this said, I really doubt your use of Ammo Lock is a problem or hiding a problem, however I would recommend the use of Priem or Amquel Plus, both of which are vastly superior products in the future. If water parameters are even playing a role in your potential fish illness, it may be the cloudy water since this is what is called a "bacterial bloom" of nitrifying Autotrophic bacteria, probably from over feeding. The bacteria use copious amounts of oxygen (being anaerobic) thus depleting oxygen setting the state for pathogenic bacteria such as Aeromonas to more easily infect fish (generally weak or injured fish) Carl
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Post by goldenpuon on Sept 7, 2008 11:49:33 GMT -5
Thanks guys. I use SeaChem Marine Buffer to raise the PH in my tanks. I could try to get some marble or other things Eve mentioned to boost my PH instead of using SeaChem Marien Buffer. (I'm not sure how natural it is) I would be glad to use rocks to raise my PH, KH, and GH for my goldfish, guppy, and female betta tanks but I'm not so sure about my 1 gallon betta conatiners that I change out completely almost every week or more. I'm not sure how rocks would tie into that because if I'm changing my water and it has a lower PH and then I have the rocks in there to raise it, it could be like a PH crash for my fish every water change if I don't use SeaChem Buffer. I also seem to get fuzzy stuff growing in my betta containers constantly, even their waste sometimes which I constantly have to change out due to this. I'm not sure if the fuzzy stuff would start growing on the rocks also or if the rocks would actually help. I'm still trying to get my hands on some Java Fern to hopefully help with this but the stores I went to all had Java Fern in poor health with browning leaves.
Luckily teh betta fry is not sick, it was nothing. Still, I'm very interested in improving my water chemistry with rocks and live plants. Any suggestions on which rocks are best and how a genreal idea of how much they raise PH?
Thanks everyone.
Renee
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Post by Carl on Sept 7, 2008 14:31:48 GMT -5
First, keep in mind your use of Marine Buffer is a good thing As this is a product based on good and natural water chemistry. Products such as Wonder Shells are a good compliment for more minerals as well. It is also important to note (as you probably already know as a chemistry student) that it is Carbonates and BiCarbonates that maintain KH and then pH, so tif you add rockks that have large amounts of minerals such as Calcium Carbonates (example Dolomite), but little carbonates/bicarbonates you will do little to off set your low pH tap water. It is also noteworthy that many of these rocks that even have more carbonates/bicarbonates such as some Limestone Rocks still disolve way to slow to counter the copius amounts of acids produced by the breakdown of fish waste and other organic matter. This is a reason why I have observed marine tanks with large amounts of crushed coral still drop in pH if the tank is crowded, water is not changed frequently enough, and/or buffers are not added. Now I know you have a FW aquarium, but this points from a SW aquarium is easily applied to FW as you are highly unlikely to have the volumes of carbonate producing rock a marine aquarium has, yet all the other factors that exert downward pressure on pH exist. I am certainly NOT against adding rocks and other decor to balance water chemistry, I do so myself and this includes Mango/Driftwood to help keep carbonates in check and balance out a community aquarium, however one must keep in mind that an aquarium or even most ponds are closed systems unlike the oceans. many lakes, and rivers of the world. For this reason the use of products (as already do) such as SeaChem Buffer and/or Wonder Shells are often still important. One more thought as to nature, and that is when natural bodies of water (or semi natural bodies such as reservoirs) cease to be more "open" systems such as many lakes in the summer, their water quality, including Redox often plunges. Carl
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