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Post by troybtj on Nov 6, 2015 20:07:07 GMT -5
When I first was exposed to fish and aqaurium books, back in the 1970's, when my dad had a couple large aquariums, the books would mention "Pay attention to your salts". Seachem didn't exist at that time, so my dad added various salts that the book listed, some from the pharmacy, some baking soda, some epsom, and some sodium chloride. There was no economical way of testing water like we've had now for the past 15 years. The only easy test was seeing how big of white spot a drop of water left after it evaporated. It wasn't until the 90's for me that "Salts" became "Salt" in books, which most people assume to be Sodium Chloride Crystals. This alone does have some need in an aquarium, otherwise there wouldn't be a division on whether or not to use it, and if so, what amount. I've mostly followed the way my dad has done it, similar to the "Walstad/German Method", with a lot of plants and some fish. Some things have changed last decade+ (Hello Seachem) and good articles and research on the internet, especially those about professional fisheries, where the term "Salts" is still used. Salts, in this case, are composed of those formed from a reaction of an acid and a base, sodium chloride being the most well known one, but there are hundreds of others. Calcium salts, which Mineral Blocks/Wonder Shells provide, in addition to Magnesium salts, and Sodium salts are the "Big Three" for fish, along with many trace salts found in natural and tap water. Unfortunately, even books of today refer to salt, rather than Salts, and most Internet sources also assume the singular salt, which most people means the only salt they know of - sodium chloride. Those who have read a lot of physical books, when did you notice the change from "Salts" to just "Sodium Chloride"? And do any still use the plural form?
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Post by Carl on Nov 7, 2015 11:53:54 GMT -5
It has been common to refer to salt singular as sodium chloride and salts plural to include all salts.. Use of Epsom salts along with sodium chloride has ebbed and flowed with the hobby. Generally with epsom salts though, they have mostly been used in hospital tanks, baths, and brine shrimp rearing tanks. With sodium chloride "salt", this has really swung both ways with persons aggressively promoting its use as a cure all for everything, and others saying to never use it with freshwater fish. My experience and tests have shown use to be best somewhere between these two extremes. I deal with "salts" in this aquarium answers article (although primarily sodium chloride): www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2008/03/salt-in-freshwater-aquariums.htmlPlease feel free to provide any suggestions where it might be expanded upon BTW, since you brought up SeaChem, and while I really find their products great, the real gurus IMO of aquarium chemistry were Aquatronics. They had more products, covering more treatment and water conditions than many other companies including Seachem combined. They also really knew their "stuff" and sent truly knowledgeable persons to trade shows. Aquatronics also really supported the independent professional aquarium/fish retailers, much more so than SeaChem which says they do, but IMO it is usually lip service. Sadly Aquatronics was a casualty of the huge homogenization of the aquarium industry in the late 1990s, early 2000s. They would not play the games of the Dr. Foster & Smiths and paid the price. Carl
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Salts
Nov 7, 2015 12:05:51 GMT -5
Carl likes this
Post by devonjohnsgard on Nov 7, 2015 12:05:51 GMT -5
Looks like we're talking some electrolytes around here? I highly promote Cal, Mag, Pot. Sodium Chloride for medical.
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Post by troybtj on Nov 7, 2015 13:08:05 GMT -5
I guess I'm just amazed at how far we've come to understanding a lot of water chemistry for fish farms to aquariums, yet some forums and chain pet stores insist you need a cup o' salt in any aquarium.
I remember the suggestions in the early 90s, then going away, now it's back.
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Post by mmfed01 on Nov 7, 2015 14:00:20 GMT -5
This hobby has a learning curve that is unique to it's own right. I got my 1st ten gallon tank "combo" in 1983 from one of many "Mom and Pop" stores during the 70's and 80's in the Greater Cleveland area. I was young so I wasn't sophisticated enough to ask detailed questions. This changed as I aged but at the same time a lot of these "stores" went away...and so did the knowledge of those who ran them. I started raising Koi in 1995 in a 1.5 acre pond. Hanging out at local hatcheries, aquatic garden shops and fish auctions, talking to others in the hobby is how I learned...and learned specifically about salts. Personally, I always used a sea salt from a local water garden for general maintenance during the non freezing months of the year unless I had a sick fish that needed netted and moved to a hospital tank within our barn. This forum is the electronic equivalent of the "Mom and Pop" shops and where I was reunited with the use of salts in aquariums (which I had never done before)...only in ponds.
Mike
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Post by troybtj on Nov 7, 2015 17:47:15 GMT -5
That's about 5 years before I started with a 5 gallon. We didn't have much for a pet store in the town I grew up in, but my dad was with the Fish & Wildlife service and traveled a lot to bring back things. That's also the source of many technical books I read about when I was a kid. I had mollies breeding and giving a few batches of fry that are growing fine in "no added single salt" water, but my water is very hard to start with. Then again, it's sort of hard NOT to breed mollies. My biggest confusion is when did the other minerals get "dropped"? Seems like AAP is doing a good job of educating the masses, but adding ONLY salt is where I sort of get the disconnect. Maybe it's just an internet thing, after all it's brought us back the 200mpg carburetor, water as fuel, and the battery running a generator that charges the battery while powering your house as well...
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Post by mmfed01 on Nov 8, 2015 4:45:20 GMT -5
I wish I had a good answer. In the early days, I used what was available. An undergravel filter with carbon inserts was my filtering. I fed food that the store sold and thought nothing more of it. It wasn't until that I got into raising African Frogs that I started taking filtering more seriously..the same goes for my addition of Koi raising. For me, it's been all about education. Most every area of my aquarium hobby was filled with good intention but improper education on certain aspects.
If you haven't already done so, read Carl's work on aquarium redox.
Mike
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Post by Carl on Nov 8, 2015 17:33:26 GMT -5
I had mollies breeding and giving a few batches of fry that are growing fine in "no added single salt" water, but my water is very hard to start with. Then again, it's sort of hard NOT to breed mollies. My biggest confusion is when did the other minerals get "dropped"? Seems like AAP is doing a good job of educating the masses, but adding ONLY salt is where I sort of get the disconnect. Maybe it's just an internet thing, after all it's brought us back the 200mpg carburetor, water as fuel, and the battery running a generator that charges the battery while powering your house as well... Here is an article from my "Aquarium/Pond Answers website that deals with Mollies and Molly Disease that often is the result of missing mineral ions in the water, but not necessarily sodium chloride salts. www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2007/10/mollies-in-aquariums.htmlHere is a quote from the article: "What many hobbyists do not understand about mollies and their natural habitat is that although salt is very useful for disease prevention, it is the other ingredients in Marine Salt that really make a difference in Molly health, and that is Calcium, Magnesium and the many other major/trace elements along with electrolytes available there in.
What ALL Molly habitats have in common is hardness/high mineral water, NOT salt!
Understanding this will go a long ways in keeping healthy, happy mollies. WITHOUT adequate calcium, magnesium and other essential elements in the water as well as a healthy Redox (which includes mineral Cations), you will most likely have trouble maintaining a healthy Molly population in your aquarium. With the right parameters, Mollies can be one of the easier fish to breed and keep and be very enjoyable fishy pets."Related information: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Livebearers.html#mollyCarl
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Post by troybtj on Nov 8, 2015 22:32:02 GMT -5
I wish I had a good answer. In the early days, I used what was available. An undergravel filter with carbon inserts was my filtering. I fed food that the store sold and thought nothing more of it. It wasn't until that I got into raising African Frogs that I started taking filtering more seriously..the same goes for my addition of Koi raising. For me, it's been all about education. Most every area of my aquarium hobby was filled with good intention but improper education on certain aspects. If you haven't already done so, read Carl's work on aquarium redox. Mike That's essentially the same setup I started with, except the food varied between flake and the dried cubes of Tubifex worms. Power filters didn't become common around here until the very late 80's/early 90's. If there were problems with a fish, it was simpler to isolate and euthanize before the tank got infected, except for ich, which was treated with temperature. On that note, I'm glad the new heaters are less prone to sticking "ON", but I still hear of that occasionally. Right now I have an Aqueon 30W pre-set to 78°F, I'm unsure of it's track record for failures, though. I would like more info on the infrared and titanium heaters in regards to failure modes.
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Post by mmfed01 on Nov 9, 2015 4:07:55 GMT -5
I've got several Titanium heaters and while I've never had a problem, anything is possible. I have a couple digital heater temp controllers that I'll run the heaters on once I'm done growing my aquascapes. The last time I had a heater issue was back in the mid 80's with an old Hagen heater. The thing wouldn't shut off once I was at set temp...
Mike
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Post by Carl on Nov 9, 2015 12:11:43 GMT -5
I wish I had a good answer. In the early days, I used what was available. An undergravel filter with carbon inserts was my filtering. I fed food that the store sold and thought nothing more of it. Under gravel filters were definitely one of the more popular filters early on. Over time these filters got a bad rap, some deserved, a lot undeserved. The problem was these filters did not hold up well under high bio loads and allowed for easier saprolegnia out breaks and higher nitrates. This said, it taken care of properly and used for low bio load aquariums, they performed quite well. As well, the type of design used made a BIG difference in performance too. Nektonics had a very good patented plate that was of a corrugated shape with channels without slits that my tests showed allowed for higher water flow under the plate and much less mulm accumulation under the plate too. The shape of the plate did not allow for substrate compaction nearly as much as the much more common flat UG Filter plates BTW, I set up all 100+ of the 100+ gallon aquariums at the Bahooka Restaurants with these filters too, and they performed quite well under good maintenance procedures (after we left the maintenance procedures were not kept up though) Carl
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Salts
Nov 9, 2015 13:10:30 GMT -5
Post by troybtj on Nov 9, 2015 13:10:30 GMT -5
I remember the Dreaded Cleaning of the Under Gravel Filter. When it got so fish were dying all the time, even with water changes, the "fix" was to pull everything apart and bleach the tank. The amount of mulm under the UGF was amazing. 1/4" or more, with the white cotton fuzz rolling around everywhere once you lifted a plate, and lots of detritus worms.
The low cost HOB Power filters that came out in the late 80's/early 90's really changed fish survival rates.
I don't think I'd switch back to a UGF even if it was perfected with some way to back flush the plates easily.
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Salts
Nov 10, 2015 10:08:38 GMT -5
Post by Carl on Nov 10, 2015 10:08:38 GMT -5
I remember the Dreaded Cleaning of the Under Gravel Filter. When it got so fish were dying all the time, even with water changes, the "fix" was to pull everything apart and bleach the tank. The amount of mulm under the UGF was amazing. 1/4" or more, with the white cotton fuzz rolling around everywhere once you lifted a plate, and lots of detritus worms. Yes, I have seen this many times over the years, but this was primarily with flat plates in high bio load aquariums. Often during cleanings, I would remove the bell of the siphon vacuum and directly run the siphon under the plate. Carl
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Post by mmfed01 on Nov 10, 2015 11:59:49 GMT -5
I remember the Dreaded Cleaning of the Under Gravel Filter. When it got so fish were dying all the time, even with water changes, the "fix" was to pull everything apart and bleach the tank. The amount of mulm under the UGF was amazing. 1/4" or more, with the white cotton fuzz rolling around everywhere once you lifted a plate, and lots of detritus worms. Yes, I have seen this many times over the years, but this was primarily with flat plates in high bio load aquariums. Often during cleanings, I would remove the bell of the siphon vacuum and directly run the siphon under the plate. Carl Now why didn't I think of that??? OR...did I miss the AAP bulletin board back in the 80's??
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Post by troybtj on Nov 10, 2015 13:48:16 GMT -5
Yes, I have seen this many times over the years, but this was primarily with flat plates in high bio load aquariums. Often during cleanings, I would remove the bell of the siphon vacuum and directly run the siphon under the plate. Carl Now why didn't I think of that??? OR...did I miss the AAP bulletin board back in the 80's?? Ditto. I guess if power heads were cheap back then, one could push water down one column and pull it up the other and out into a bucket, but those were low tech times, relatively.
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Post by mmfed01 on Nov 10, 2015 14:10:46 GMT -5
Read my thread UGJ in this sub forum. I've always been fascinated with moving water around aquariums. I thought I'd get clever and use Azoo filter pipes in a reverse flow setup....using canisters return pipe to force water down the pipes and return through the gravel bed. Bad move on my part...
Mike
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