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Post by devonjohnsgard on Jun 20, 2014 23:19:55 GMT -5
We discussed that previously. It is certainly open for discussion. Wouldn't mind giving it try.
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clayn
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Post by clayn on Jun 20, 2014 23:55:13 GMT -5
PM me your address and I will send you a sample. Which food would you like to try?
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clayn
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Post by clayn on Jun 21, 2014 0:24:27 GMT -5
After some research I found these protein digestibility percentages: Egg Whites 100% Whole Menhaden Meal 93% Shrimp Meal 86.5% average Spirulina 86.5% average Green Peas 70% I lumped astaxanthin, paprika and cayenne in with green peas for the calculations below.
Just for fun I calculated the overall protein digestibility for each food.
Carnivore 86.6% Digestible Protein Omnivore 83.6% Digestible Protein Herbivore 84.2% Digestible Protein Grow 88.5% Digestible Protein
All things considered I am ok with those numbers. Limiting fat, starch, sugar and the dehydration process limits the moisture content to under 5% has a price. That only leaves protein (which also needs limitations) fiber and minerals to fill in the rest. As I said earlier it is a delicate balancing act.
Devon if you want more than one type of food simply ask. I do appreciate your interest!
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Jun 21, 2014 0:54:36 GMT -5
Is it a more gain and fine for each kind? I guess I would need the Omnivore, cause I have a community tank. So, protein would be good for overall health, with limited fats, starch, and sugar? I focus a lot on Spirulina and dryed shrimp. I need to give Carl's fish food article a good read sometime. I'd appreciate the sample. I wouldn't mind buying it from Carl too if he picks it up. Maybe you can just send it to AAP The address is 913 SW H st. Grants Pass OR, 97526. I live in Grants Pass too. I'm sure fish will love it, they love to eat
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clayn
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Post by clayn on Jun 21, 2014 1:09:24 GMT -5
I will get some samples of all the foods together and send them to AAP including yours. I am sure that Carl would like to see them all anyway
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Jun 21, 2014 9:47:52 GMT -5
I will get some samples of all the foods together and send them to AAP including yours. I am sure that Carl would like to see them all anyway Sounds great thank!
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clayn
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Post by clayn on Jun 21, 2014 21:23:48 GMT -5
Carl in your article on fish nutrition you mentioned a study done on grouper concerning how much starch they could use. If you can, please reveal that percentage. I fed carnivores my herbivore food ( 3.7% sugar and 14.1% starch) for a few days and the water didn't contain any starch. I used iodine as a reagent. This concerns me because most foods use a minimum of 15% starch to bind the food. If the fat is at 5% not counting any sugar this puts the energy level at a little over 26. The 26 energy level doesn't concern me nearly as much as most fish foods contain more starch than the required minimum.
For years brine shrimp and daphnia have been known for purging the fish's digestive tract. Could it be the excess calcium acts as inert matter to get things moving through the digestive tract?
I have found several studies noting a good percentage of sand in the digestive tracts in Tropheus in Lake Tanganyika: Takamura 1983: 18% sand in T. brichardi Miyako Kohda & Yanagisawa 1992: more sand in T. duboisi stomachs than in T. sp. 'black' Sturmbauer et al. 1992: up to 25% sand in stomachs of the Brabant Moorii (Burundi). Many plecos that are herbivores eat driftwood which is also high in fiber. In omnivores and herbivores the lack of enough inert matter to aid in digestion can cause digestive blockages. The use of green pea flour gives me some starch to aid in binding the food and an equal amount of fiber to aid in digestion.
Thoughts?
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clayn
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Post by clayn on Jun 23, 2014 12:41:13 GMT -5
Also worth noting in the above mentioned studies cyanobacteria not algae made up most of the rest of what was found in the fish's digestive tracts.
However I have done a lot of research on algae/cyanobacteria and my understanding is that pond raised algae/cyanobacteria doesn't have the same properties as the same species growing in a lake with limited nitrogen. I believe that having to compete for nitrogen in the lake lowers protein levels and raises carbohydrates. So while the intention is good those feeding a diet high in spirulina are not feeding a natural diet. I use spirulina in all of my foods because it being seen as a bacteria heightens the fish's immune system. I have to limit spirulina to some degree even in the herbivore food because of the high fat content and the high omega 6 content. Yes I realize that herbivores consume primarily plant matter which generally contains a lots of omega 6. I can't understand how their fat requirements can be different than the other types of fish.
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Post by Carl on Jun 23, 2014 15:44:24 GMT -5
Unfortunately I cannot remember as this was a study I read some time ago, and not on the internet. When or if I ever I get caught up with my mounds of work, this might be something I will look back into, but since I just got back from my first true week end off in a month, my work load is even more piled up. If memory serves me correct, about 20% is what I remember Again you stumped me on the mechanism, but experiments calcium certainly show this to be a viable explanation. What I do know is that I HAVE used Brine Shrimp in particular for years as a way to clear constipated fish I am not familiar with the studies with sand, although it makes sense from my observations of these fish (you are the teacher here ) My thoughts on the green pea powder are if it truly has enough roughage or is very refined like many flours used for human consumption Keep in mind that cyanobacteria are not the Spirulina used for fish or human consumption and in fact many types of blue green algae are toxic to consume. How people and fish utilize omega 6 and 3 are different from my understanding. As well it is fish that consume other fish and live in colder waters that have higher omega 3 fat contents, so I have to venture a guess that there is a difference in fish fat requirements between herbivores as well as tropical versus coldwater fish. What I have found is that Spirulina is best used as part of the fish food formula/diet, not the only or even main ingredient. As you noted, one of its primary advantages is how it boost the immune system as well as many bio available proteins. In the end, I think you might be the teacher now in a lot of this material, since while I did many experiments over the years, as well as reading/research to back up what I found in my results, my goals were different from what you are seeking. I was not seeking to make or create a fish food, rather to find what made up a good fish food as well as what diet achieved the best results for fish to have the best growth, disease resistance, and longevity for my clients fish. As an example, one of my earliest large clients was a restaurant with over a 100 large aquariums. This client had a unique contract where by I could only charge so much a month for labor, equipment, fish food, and replacement fish. So from a purely business point of view I could not only have a happier client, but I could be much more profitable if I rarely had to replace fish. This is where my fish food experiments sprung from in the late 70s, my UV sterilization experiments in the 80s, and my chemistry and redox experiments stared in the 90s Carl
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Jun 23, 2014 16:20:43 GMT -5
So professor Clayn, in simple terms, can you let me know why you think it's important to have a balance diet, like the one you are trying to make and what's good in your food compared to the common food that most fish keepers use?
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clayn
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Post by clayn on Jun 23, 2014 21:28:23 GMT -5
Devon the main way my food is different is limiting starch and in most comparisons fat. I use egg whites as a binder as well as green peas. The egg whites are the standard by which all other proteins are judged. All food manufacturers that I am aware of use some form of starch as the binder. That number is 15% to 20% starch to hold the food together plus most have at least 5% fat. If the starch number is 20 and the fat number is 5% x 2.25= 11 that puts the energy at 31 which in my opinion is too high for the long term health of the fish. Plus my food is dehydrated at 150 degrees retaining vitamins that cook out of food extruded at 350 degrees.
Does that help?
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clayn
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Post by clayn on Jun 23, 2014 23:24:29 GMT -5
20% starch for carnivores is about right I believe. Although their natural diet would not contain that much starch. I don't think that the 10% starch in our carnivore food is realistic concerning a natural diet. However energy is energy and as long as it doesn't exceed an acceptable total it really doesn't matter. The pea flour actually has both. Pea flour has approximately 63% carbohydrates with fiber making up 44% of that. It has the same consistency as wheat flour. The Methionine+Cystine:Isoleucine lacking in pea flour is completed by the fish meal and shrimp meal. I do like the whole menhaden meal that I use. Limiting fat makes it difficult to use large quantities of fish meal. The shrimp meal that I am currently using is very fresh and by far the best that I have found. Your studies are very relevant. I still say that you have forgotten more than I will ever know. I am not reinventing the wheel, simply rounding it a bit to make it more efficient. I really appreciate what you have done for the hobby. I am interested in becoming a site sponsor. As I said earlier the offer is still good to carry our food with zero upfront cost to you. I don't mean to sound arrogant but it is better than anything else that I have found on the market. As soon as I get in a shipment of green pea flour I will send you and Devon some samples to try. We don't have anyone in the northwest wanting to carry it either. Devon if you want to read more on the food you can go to www.paradigmfishfood.com/home.html
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Jun 24, 2014 9:30:56 GMT -5
Devon the main way my food is different is limiting starch and in most comparisons fat. I use egg whites as a binder as well as green peas. The egg whites are the standard by which all other proteins are judged. All food manufacturers that I am aware of use some form of starch as the binder. That number is 15% to 20% starch to hold the food together plus most have at least 5% fat. If the starch number is 20 and the fat number is 5% x 2.25= 11 that puts the energy at 31 which in my opinion is too high for the long term health of the fish. Plus my food is dehydrated at 150 degrees retaining vitamins that cook out of food extruded at 350 degrees. Does that help? Yeah, that helps a lot. I'm excited to give it a try cause I'm just doing flakes and some dried shrimp. I've heard of these more complete diets, but have never really tried it out. I'm sure my fish will be thankful. The offer you are trying to set up with Carl sounds like a good deal. Im sure it would be nice to market that it's one of the best foods you can get. It will be nice to see what happens! Thanks for being a part of the group. It's been nice to follow this thread.
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Post by Carl on Jun 24, 2014 9:38:44 GMT -5
Thank you for your kind words, but I too am still learning from others, including you! I am definitely interested in selling your foods. I really like your approach to in depth research, which is so rare in the modern aquarium industry that is so driven by BS Amazon reviews by persons who likely cannot even tell their left foot from their right foot, yet alone review any aquarium or pond product. Do you have any pictures of your packaging? BTW, your not being arrogant, as your research speaks for itself. Carl
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clayn
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Post by clayn on Jun 25, 2014 15:00:33 GMT -5
My apologies for the delay. We are currently looking at changing packaging. What we currently are using is a 4 mil zip bag that holds 8 oz. of food with a plain white label. We are looking into a stand up pouch. Personally I could care less about packaging. Whats inside is what really matters.
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Post by Carl on Jun 25, 2014 18:36:03 GMT -5
My apologies for the delay. We are currently looking at changing packaging. What we currently are using is a 4 mil zip bag that holds 8 oz. of food with a plain white label. We are looking into a stand up pouch. Personally I could care less about packaging. Whats inside is what really matters. While I personally agree , unfortunately packaging sells, especially in "brick & mortar" stores. More importantly, all I am looking for is something to present as a picture, even if it is just a sandwich bag full of the fish food crumbles I am definitely interested, especially with the demise of HBH, but I need to build a web page around the product and pictures are just part of the process Carl
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clayn
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Post by clayn on Jun 25, 2014 19:07:37 GMT -5
What happened to Spencer? If you can say that is.
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Post by Carl on Jun 26, 2014 9:32:45 GMT -5
What happened to Spencer? If you can say that is. Do you mean HBH? Carl
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clayn
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Post by clayn on Jun 26, 2014 10:41:59 GMT -5
Yes HBH? Did you get the pictures I sent via email?
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Post by Carl on Jun 26, 2014 15:01:44 GMT -5
While I do not know for a fact, but based on a major supplier HBH, which is a USA (Utah) based company sadly met their demise because they played fair with all retailers and refused to go in with the discounters such as PetCo, Amazon, etc. This did not mean their products could not be found in these location, only they they would not under cut the specialty stores that promoted their better than average foods. I really respected this company for this, but unfortunately in a world driven by Amazon reviews by persons with no qualifications to give such a review, as well as well as persons who will read articles such as mine or read forums such as this and then buy elsewhere, this is the result!Omega Foods is a brand that unfortunately stabbed businesses such as mine that used, tested, and then promoted their products only to go and sell cheaper to the discounters (they will not even answer my emails). Thankfully HBH resisted this temptation, but look where it got them Carl
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