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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2014 9:16:24 GMT -5
Greetings All,
Details to come.... Just wanted to THANK Carl! and everyone. It was everything you said/wrote that is saving my fish. A leap of faith helps - but science is needed too.
I am off to do water changes for my son's fish (3 1/2 hours away -- grin). He has a 90 gallon, 60 gallon and 20 gallon. Grandma takes care of her Grandfish! I am just doing this temporarily, my son is swamped at work. This will be my third water change - taking 6 five gallon jugs of water each time.
I will post everything on how I saved my fish when I get back home.
Cheers!
P.S. Carl is an OUTSTANDING forum moderator/owner. Five stars and more.
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Post by Carl on Oct 9, 2014 12:39:27 GMT -5
Thank you! I/we try to have a forum that allows reasonable discussion without any "flaming" We do not have to always agree, but what would/will bring our stronger moderation is rude behavior to one another. I like to take pride that EA is a friendly family atmosphere. When it does come to disagreement, I still use this to often improve articles by adding new content, re-writing sections for more clarity, etc. As well I too am constantly learning. However, when science is ignored, I will always try and post a response that contradicts if need be so that other readers do not get confused and so that EA can always be a place for even "lurkers" to get the best information possible based on KNOWN science. But I will not ban persons the way other forums will for such posts either Carl
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2014 20:14:23 GMT -5
Thanks Carl,
My hospitalized fish are still doing well - but not ready to return to the 75 gallon.
I "promised" to tell what I have done to keep them safe. I have done 25% water changes with conditioned RO water (set to perfect parameters) every other day. The ammonia still hadn't come down yesterday (medicine "killed" the bio filter - I did replace some of the bio media with seeded bio media from the 75 gallon). The ammonia is non-toxic thanks to Ammo-Lock. Nitrites are zero and nitrates less than 20 ppm. Nitrites and Nitrates would also be non-toxic though since I use Amquel Plus when I do the water change (after the Amquel Plus, I inject more oxygen by taking out water and pouring it back in holding the container above the aquarium).....The second day, I detox any additional ammonia with Ammo lock.
I bought another filter (to replace the small box filter) and will set that up tomorrow with some additional seeded bio media.
So....if the nitrites are high - "would you do a water change?" All of you can see that I do indeed do water changes if my fish are in any kind of stress. One summer, when ammonia spiked (due to low KH), I did 25% to 30% water changes every other day in the 75 gallon until the ammonia was at zero. Have a smile, that is probably the last time nitrates were ever less than 20 ppm. I used Ammo Lock and Amquel Plus then, as well.
I received my Methylene Blue today in the mail. My turquoise rainbow is the first fish that will benefit. I will have a designated Methylene Blue bucket. I will re-read everything on Carl's site on how to do the bath. I have an extra heater and air pump I can use. The room temperature is probably around 70 degrees now, so I won't let him get too chilly.
I started using Seachem Stability a couple days ago and will let you know if I have had more success. When I got home today, I didn't check ammonia...I just put Ammo lock in as a precaution. To improve oxygen uptake, I also use Microbe Lift TheraP (I don't know how it works - it just does).
I have zeolite and a piece of Polyfilter in the box filter - Nitra-zorb and Algone in the Aqua Clear. The Nitra-zorb gets recharged/replaced every few days (I have several small pouches in the salt solution). API no longer makes the small pouches.... I bought over a dozen of them a while back. When those are gone, I will just divide up the bigger ones.
The only medicine the fish are getting now is Artemiss everyday. I do plan to try the Methylene Blue bucket bath tomorrow for the turquoise rainbow.
Cheers!
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Oct 11, 2014 14:48:14 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2014 8:51:02 GMT -5
Hi Devon, Just a smile for you/all.... I forgot to add "a leap of faith" in my treatment plan. I did do another water change yesterday - all parameters are safe/right except the extremely high ammonia (I have never seen an ammonia reading that high - API test kit - so I can't even tell you how high it is. Let's just say "off the chart"). There is no way that ammonia is toxic or my fish would all be dead. Aside from their conditions that brought them to the hospital tank in the first place, they all appear to be happy - all active and eating - no stress. None of the three are ready to go back to the 75 gallon (two have tender mouths from "Mouth Rot" and one has open wounds that Tiger Barbs would snack on). I will continue doing water changes every other day - or every day as long as the fish are doing well...I do have clove oil to put any of them down if need be. One of these days, I will get another Seachem Ammo Alert (just for the hospital tank) - as that only shows toxic ammonia. I Just didn't need them any more for my aquariums so haven't bought any in a while. I am hopeful though that after these three fish improve and are returned to the 75 gallon (or are put to rest), I won't need the hospital tank again for a very long time (smile). This is only the third time I have used it since 2011. I am retired, so have time to do a lot (smile). Cheers! Judy
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2014 9:44:30 GMT -5
Greetings All,
Just wanted to let you know that the Boesemani rainbow has passed on to "fish heaven" (he was at least five years old). The Boesemani is the one that was wounded by the Featherfish catfish "slasher". The wound on his side was getting better, but the wound on his back (which was an older wound) got deeper (Boesemani must have torn it deeper on something in the aquarium -- air line? suction cup on plastic box filter?).
The Boesemani was in the 10 gallon hospital tank last month with a Congo Tetra that needed Tetracycline (the Congo Tetra did get better). At the time, I didn't know the danger of using Tetracycline if the fish has an open wound. Tetracycline lowers red blood cells - making it difficult for fish to heal. The Boesemani stopped eating Saturday evening. I planned to put him down Sunday morning, but he died on his own.
The Goyder River rainbow and Turquoise rainbow are still eating (these are the two with cases of Columnaris/mouth rot). I still treat them with Bio Bandage (very carefully), but there is too much erosion to their mouths -- too tender (They will remain in the hospital tank the rest of their lives). I still alternate Melafix and Pimafix. I never finished the full treatment of Triple Sulfa (the only locally available medication for Columnaris). One rainbow (a New Guinea) died right away as a result of the Triple Sulfa (some fish are highly allergic to it). Since I am also allergic to sulfa based medications, I gave away the rest of the box.
I am still doing 20% to 25% water changes every other day (and using Ammo-lock to detox the ammonia). The tank has two Aqua Clear filters (a 30 and a 20) but no gravel. I did add some small additional pouches of colonized bio media. Ammonia level is not coming down, so I just stopped checking. Ammonia has to be non-toxic or the fish would be dead.
Bio Bandage has Methylene Blue in it....Amquel negates the effects of Methylene Blue, so I stopped using Amquel Plus. I "discovered" that on Kordon's web site last week. I have no idea if Ammo Lock also negates the effect of Methylene Blue.
Note to Carl: I have purchased fish from five different stores in the last 10 days. I have shared with all of them the information about Tetracycline. None of them knew that it lowers red blood cells. Yes, I told them where I found the information. Maybe the loss of my fish will save someone else's fish? API has it right on the box that Tetracycline treats open woulds. I do intend to write to API.... I doubt they will change their package, though.
Cheers,
Judy
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Post by Carl on Oct 20, 2014 11:09:22 GMT -5
Sorry about the loss of your fish Judy It is noteworthy, that sometimes just as with human treatment, we ca do everything correctly from prevention to treatment and the fish still dies. As well we do not have the tools at our disposal, nor are these tools viable as per cost to always make the most accurate diagnosis and treatment. It often comes down to statistics, and even statistically when everything is done "right", I have lost fish too. I seriously doubt API will even reply to you, as they have not to us as a seller of their products, but good luck! Carl
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2014 17:18:47 GMT -5
Hi Carl,
I will let you know if I hear back (I have names of two associates who helped me)....I do have two very long phone messages from one associate saved on my answering machine. I refer to those when I have questions about the antibiotics. Tetracycline has saved several of my fish.... those just didn't have open wounds.
I only use Tetracycline in a hospital tank.... and always do several water changes (like every other day) and use Polyfilter and charcoal to remove it -- thanks to what I read on your site that Tetracycline gets toxic if left in the water. There is no warning about that on the box either -- or warning about importance of using it before expiration date. I have tossed out old Tetracycline (sealed in plastic zip bag). Safer to buy new.
I am just lucky I don't need the hospital tank very often. I almost gave it away to a friend (since I hadn't needed it in over two years). Good thing I kept it.
Cheers,
Judy
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Post by angelminx on Oct 24, 2014 13:28:57 GMT -5
About talking with API :
I called the company and was told that there was nearly a 100% chance that nothing was wrong with the reagent, and that I should use the new card that came with the kit. I just bought another new bottle of the High-range (as well as new KH/GH, and Nitrate) because of the problem with the 1st "new" one, and it, too, is reading "off". I checked using both of the "new test's" cards and they, too, are different than my original card (which I continue to use)--the colors don't come anywhere near the colors in the test vials, and are "goofy" in the color differences on the cards; a couple of the colors on (each) single card are hard to tell apart! I tested yesterday with both high-range tests (only the 55G needed the higher pH tests--results right on the dividing line between tests, maybe a little darker blue), and both read differently from each other, though not by much, and it was hard to tell on the original card what the results actually were. I tossed the newer cards.
I also tested with the other new tests that I bought, to compare with my existing (almost empty) reagents, and except for the Nitrate--which is only very slightly different--they all read perfect. I don't know what the issue the the High-range pH test reagents is. Normally my pH reads ~7.4-7.6, but there are times it jumps higher, and when I purchase new fish, I always test their transfer water before acclimation. The water they come from reads over 8.0 most of the time, and I would really like to know the actual number.
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Post by angelminx on Oct 24, 2014 13:44:33 GMT -5
Somehow part of the intro to my previous post got deleted, and when I tried (2x) to re-add it it did not work in the "Edit Post" section--it was there until I clicked on "Save Changes". Then when I tried to add this new post to add it this way, I clicked on "Post Quick Reply" and it did not post then either, so I am tying once more. I had mentioned about posting on this subject on a previous thread, but couldn't remember where, and also wanted to comment on speaking with API.
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Post by angelminx on Oct 24, 2014 13:55:31 GMT -5
I just started a thread on the "Equipment" section to continue the above posts, since I can't remember where I 1st mentioned this.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2014 18:23:17 GMT -5
Greetings All,
An now there is one.... I had to put the Turquoise rainbowfish down this evening, leaving only the Goyder River rainbow. The turquoise rainbow got stuck behind the intake tube on one of the Aqua Clear filters and injured himself pretty bad trying to get out. I almost bought some medicine for them yesterday -- then decided not to. The ammonia never did come down (has to be non-toxic though -- as I still put Ammo-lock in every other day -- and do 25% water changes every other day). It just didn't make sense to try another medicine now.
The Goyder River rainbow likes his Methylene Blue baths, so I will continue those along with natural treatments (which have kept him from getting any worse).
The Goyder River rainbow has been in the hospital tank since mid September. As long as he is active and eating well, I will continue to care for him in the hospital tank.
Note: The Turquoise rainbow ended up getting the same ailment that the Betta had (I think)....The last time I went to put Bio Bandage on his back, black rubbed off. His scales were still there -- just no more color. I never saw anything like that happen before.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2014 13:45:02 GMT -5
Well... My Goyder River in the hospital tank is going to get a tank mate - my acrobatic Goyder River. The high sky diver's mouth rot is getting worse. Since I have been doing the Methylene Bath, I stopped my trusted treatment in the 75 gallon so I could use the aquarium water for the baths. The mouth rot did spread to a couple Emerald Rainbows, but Bio Bandage healed their mouths in just two treatments.... Last night, it had spread to a Kamaka rainbow (nose/mouth healed after just one treatment). Another water change is in order after Thanksgiving (I will do a 30% --- I have been changing out 5 gallons each Methylene Blue bath treatment - dividing the 5 gallons into two buckets since I have several fish I am treating).
The acrobat is my "miracle fish".... One side had been badly injured at the pet store. After it healed, I bought him at a discount - sometime summer 2013. Well.... early August, my featherfin catfish slashed his other side. He is the reason the hospital tank came out of storage in the first place. His side healed in about a week of Bio Bandage treatments and Melafix/Pimafix -- so back in the 75 gallon he went. Sometime in October, I noticed just a small spot of bacteria on his healed side, so I netted him for a dab of Bio-Bandage. Well.... He leaped right out of the net - right down to the hard floor (probably injuring his mouth). I have been treating him with dabs of Hydrogen Peroxide --- and Bio Bandage (no, not at the same time.... just trying to see what treatment helps).
During the last bath treatment of Methylene Blue, the acrobat Goyder River leaped out of the bucket. I have no idea how long he was out of the water (I was testing pH in both tanks and rinsing the tubes). I usually put a towel over the bucket, but didn't that time. STUPID mistake!!! I put him back in the bath for a few minutes then into the tank....His mouth erosion is much worse now..... and doesn't look like it will get better. He is certainly too weak now to try stronger medications, so he will go into the hospital tank so he can have Melafix and Pimafix. Since hubby and I are allergic to both of those, I can't do them in the 75 gallon. The smaller tank (ten gallon)doesn't seem to bother us as much (I just can't get my nose too close -- smile).
I am not kicking myself too badly for forgetting the towel.... This fish would have died from his wounds in August if left in the 75 gallon.... Those nasty tiger barbs eat at the raw flesh making the wound go even deeper. One of my HUGE tinfoil barbs (one is about 10 inches long the other about 11 inches -- so still some growing room)is wounded by the featherfin right now and the tiger barbs are nipping at him... I need to get back to my trusted treatments which DO help the tinfoil barbs heal.... they are just too big and strong to net for Bio Bandage.
The acrobat Goyder River will continue to get baths and topical treatments - along with Melafix and Pimafix. He is still eating, so too healthy to put down. He doesn't seem to be bothered by his injured mouth.
Stronger treatments will kill the bio filter in that tank (no gravel bed to help with the bio load).... I don't want to mess with daily water changes again. I still do water changes every three days -- and check pH/KH every day to insure the nitrogen cycle is working.
Since my son is also VERY allergic to Melafix and Pimafix - and is coming home for Thanksgiving, I will only be able to do treatments after all go to bed.... by morning, the smell is mostly gone. Doesn't matter if I suffer a bit (smile).
Once all signs of the Columnaris appears to be gone..... I need to do another water change since the 75 gallon needs a Prazi-Pro treatment. I had a female turquoise die a couple months ago that had no sign of illness other than she stopped eating (suggesting something internal). It has been quite a while since I used Prazi-Pro in the 75 gallon. She was a fish that had been given to a local pet store.... I should have asked for her medical history (smile). She didn't cost much (I got a full grown turquoise rainbow for $5.00) -- and I did enjoy her for many months....but I should know better than to buy a fish (locally) someone else cared for a while....I know local people do not do everything I do to insure fish stay healthy. She had to come from the chain store that I know doesn't treat the fish they sell very well. I have a turquoise from that same bunch, but bought it the same day the fish arrived. He is a stunning, very healthy fish (I bought him before their water could ruin him).
Cheers,
Judy D.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2014 13:45:54 GMT -5
OOPS! Machine hic-up....Posted this twice. You have permission to only read it once...if you read it at all.... It is a LONG one).
Well... My Goyder River in the hospital tank is going to get a tank mate - my acrobatic Goyder River. The high sky diver's mouth rot is getting worse. Since I have been doing the Methylene Bath, I stopped my trusted treatment in the 75 gallon so I could use the aquarium water for the baths. The mouth rot did spread to a couple Emerald Rainbows, but Bio Bandage healed their mouths in just two treatments.... Last night, it had spread to a Kamaka rainbow (nose/mouth healed after just one treatment). Another water change is in order after Thanksgiving (I will do a 30% --- I have been changing out 5 gallons each Methylene Blue bath treatment - dividing the 5 gallons into two buckets since I have several fish I am treating).
The acrobat is my "miracle fish".... One side had been badly injured at the pet store. After it healed, I bought him at a discount - sometime summer 2013. Well.... early August, my featherfin catfish slashed his other side. He is the reason the hospital tank came out of storage in the first place. His side healed in about a week of Bio Bandage treatments and Melafix/Pimafix -- so back in the 75 gallon he went. Sometime in October, I noticed just a small spot of bacteria on his healed side, so I netted him for a dab of Bio-Bandage. Well.... He leaped right out of the net - right down to the hard floor (probably injuring his mouth). I have been treating him with dabs of Hydrogen Peroxide --- and Bio Bandage (no, not at the same time.... just trying to see what treatment helps).
During the last bath treatment of Methylene Blue, the acrobat Goyder River leaped out of the bucket. I have no idea how long he was out of the water (I was testing pH in both tanks and rinsing the tubes). I usually put a towel over the bucket, but didn't that time. STUPID mistake!!! I put him back in the bath for a few minutes then into the tank....His mouth erosion is much worse now..... and doesn't look like it will get better. He is certainly too weak now to try stronger medications, so he will go into the hospital tank so he can have Melafix and Pimafix. Since hubby and I are allergic to both of those, I can't do them in the 75 gallon. The smaller tank (ten gallon)doesn't seem to bother us as much (I just can't get my nose too close -- smile).
I am not kicking myself too badly for forgetting the towel.... This fish would have died from his wounds in August if left in the 75 gallon.... Those nasty tiger barbs eat at the raw flesh making the wound go even deeper. One of my HUGE tinfoil barbs (one is about 10 inches long the other about 11 inches -- so still some growing room)is wounded by the featherfin right now and the tiger barbs are nipping at him... I need to get back to my trusted treatments which DO help the tinfoil barbs heal.... they are just too big and strong to net for Bio Bandage.
The acrobat Goyder River will continue to get baths and topical treatments - along with Melafix and Pimafix. He is still eating, so too healthy to put down. He doesn't seem to be bothered by his injured mouth.
Stronger treatments will kill the bio filter in that tank (no gravel bed to help with the bio load).... I don't want to mess with daily water changes again. I still do water changes every three days -- and check pH/KH every day to insure the nitrogen cycle is working.
Since my son is also VERY allergic to Melafix and Pimafix - and is coming home for Thanksgiving, I will only be able to do treatments after all go to bed.... by morning, the smell is mostly gone. Doesn't matter if I suffer a bit (smile).
Once all signs of the Columnaris appears to be gone..... I need to do another water change since the 75 gallon needs a Prazi-Pro treatment. I had a female turquoise die a couple months ago that had no sign of illness other than she stopped eating (suggesting something internal). It has been quite a while since I used Prazi-Pro in the 75 gallon. She was a fish that had been given to a local pet store.... I should have asked for her medical history (smile). She didn't cost much (I got a full grown turquoise rainbow for $5.00) -- and I did enjoy her for many months....but I should know better than to buy a fish (locally) someone else cared for a while....I know local people do not do everything I do to insure fish stay healthy. She had to come from the chain store that I know doesn't treat the fish they sell very well. I have a turquoise from that same bunch, but bought it the same day the fish arrived. He is a stunning, very healthy fish (I bought him before their water could ruin him).
Cheers,
Judy D.
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Post by Carl on Nov 26, 2014 14:45:25 GMT -5
Sorry to read your Goyder River Rainbow is getting worse! You might consider increasing the amount of salt in both the bath and hospital tank Also consider a Kanamycin/Nitrofurazone combination in the bath along with possibly adding Oregon Grape Roots with will stop many bacteria from building resistance to treatments. Another consideration is a mouth swab with diluted Potassium Permanganate, as this is very good at killing Columnaris on contact (but do not let any into the gills) Further References: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Columnaris.htmlwww.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2009/07/fish-baths.htmlWith the fish that the Bio Bandage is working for, I would keep them apart for this guy if at all possible. Carl
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2014 15:30:29 GMT -5
Yes! I forgot I was going to go out and look for Oregon Grape Root. Thanks for the reminder.... Furan2 and Kamamycin is not available locally now....I prefer to just try the Oregon Grape Root. I will let you know how everything turns out for these two buddies. Not looking forward to every-other-day water changes, though. With only one fish in there, I was doing them every three to four days.
Yes.... The Goyder River acrobat is in the hospital tank to keep him away from everyone else (except the other Goyder River that has been in the Hospital tank since October. The first Goyder River hasn't gotten worse, but there is serious erosion of his mouth. It is safer for him to stay separated. I knew the acrobat was more comfortable in the 75 gallon, but since it is spreading now, he had to be moved (boo-hoo).
Now, only the two in the hospital tank will get baths. Once the 75 gallon no longer needs the trusted treatments, the three elderly rainbows can go back to having baths, too.
Judy
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Post by Carl on Nov 26, 2014 16:42:57 GMT -5
Oregon Grape Root should help, but it also helps antibiotics work synergistically. Also note that Methylene Blue is only a mild treatment by itself and needs to be part of a cocktail of treatments for best results, is only very elevated salt levels as per the graph in the Columnaris article As per Kanamycin and Nitrofurazone, these too are generally part of a cocktail of treatments for any serious Columnaris infection. I point these out because while Columnaris is a disease that often kills in its most serious manifestations when everything is done according what is most effective, using only part of a treatment is often not met with success. Of course age and genetic plays a major role in treatment success as does maintaining a constant supply of Mineral Cations (in fact the Cations are one of the key elements that if missing almost always guarantees failure) Reference: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Columnaris.htmlCarl
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2014 17:51:51 GMT -5
Have a chuckle .... You may convince me one of these days to buy more Furan2 and Kanamycin.....If I do, I will certainly order both from AAP.
Judy
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2014 12:09:28 GMT -5
Well...Now there is only one Goyder River rainbow.
I had to put the first Goyder River rainbow down with clove oil last night. It was obvious he wouldn't make it till morning. His mouth that eroded from the bacteria was healing - but he came down with a parasite -- Costia? based on the way he looked. There was no additional slime coat covering on him, but the redness on his face and underside looked like it might be Costia. This fish was exposed to Costia several years ago (at least what I thought was Costia). He didn't look this way the last time I gave him a Methylene Blue bath. I had stopped putting Bio Bandage on the two Goyder River boys, otherwise, I may have spotted it sooner.
This fish got in a fight two years ago with my oldest Boesemani who damaged one of his eyes (the Goyder River took out the Boesemani's eye - I put the Boesemani in a hospital bucket to live out the rest of his life. He was over five years old). I am just happy I was able to keep the Goyder River rainbow this long (as the damaged eye did get infected - I used Melafix to treat the whole tank that time).
This Goyder River (Melanotaenia trifasciata)was the second fish to come down with mouth rot in August (the first was a Millennium rainbow who jumped out the back of the hospital tank over night). This rainbow was treated with Erythromycin - the WRONG medication. I have no idea why API claims that Erythromycin treats gram negative infections.
I feel good about this, though.... I kept him comfortable for over four months.
The remaining Goyder River does have a tank mate....and ordinary Australian rainbow with a mystery condition - that I didn't want to expose the rest of my fish to. Whatever it is did take a Yellow Rainbow a few years ago (at the time, I thought it was a tumor as I had other fish develop tumors after the "Great Death" of September 2011 -- which started on...you guessed it...9/11/2011...Freaky!). He has a growth at one of his pectoral fins. Right now, the Goyder River is trying to take him out. He did make the Australian jump out last night while I was getting dinner ready, but hubby rescued him.
Judy
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Dec 22, 2014 11:17:38 GMT -5
Well...Now there is only one Goyder River rainbow. Sorry for another loss. At least you are providing good homes for a long period of time. 5 years is long, but sometimes can feel short. Thanks for sharing.
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