kevin
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Post by kevin on Sept 2, 2014 20:38:23 GMT -5
Hi, I see there hasn't been a post to the cichlid boards here for a little while. I've been getting medication input on another post, but have a couple water parameter questions specific to my Talapia Butterikofferi cichlid. (picture to side). He's an old boy, about 17 yrs. Im trying to get the right water parameters (without chasing pH) but not sure where a West African River environment (pH, kH,gH, temp, etc) parameters should be? Im still having a nitrate issue (around 160-200 ppm), which may be the Emperor 400 with biowheels. Im keeping tank clean, water changes etc as per other post with responses from Carl and Devon. But from all the stuff Im reading, Amazon and West African river are sort of different. Thanks in advance for the help! Regards, Kevin
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Sept 3, 2014 9:14:15 GMT -5
Hi, I see there hasn't been a post to the cichlid boards here for a little while. I've been getting medication input on another post, but have a couple water parameter questions specific to my Talapia Butterikofferi cichlid. (picture to side). He's an old boy, about 17 yrs. Im trying to get the right water parameters (without chasing pH) but not sure where a West African River environment (pH, kH,gH, temp, etc) parameters should be? Im still having a nitrate issue (around 160-200 ppm), which may be the Emperor 400 with biowheels. Im keeping tank clean, water changes etc as per other post with responses from Carl and Devon. But from all the stuff Im reading, Amazon and West African river are sort of different. Thanks in advance for the help! Regards, Kevin
Hey, maybe this can help. Cichlid profiles and Amazon water conditions (water chemistry). www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Cichlids.htmlwww.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumKH.html#amazonThose Nitrates are a little high. I would start with a vacuuming and then work on filtration that will eliminate these nitrates. Here's a great article on how to control Nitrates. www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2007/07/aquarium-nitrates.htmlLet us know if you have more specific questions.
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Post by Ameenah on Sept 3, 2014 22:51:43 GMT -5
Hi Kevin
Here is a suggestion specific to your Big Ol Guy/Gal: water guideline 72-82° F, KH 10-15, pH 7.8-8.6. I found it online by searching your specific species.
As for your Nitrates issue, it is a challenge but stick with advice in articles referenced above by Devon and one of these days you will get the Nitrates down.
Keep up the great work Kevin.
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kevin
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Post by kevin on Sept 14, 2014 17:33:00 GMT -5
Thanks Devon and Ameenah. Im still kinda confused when I put together all the reading info on gH, kH, added minerals but lower kH or buffering, and finally, as per the sites suggeted above, Im going by West African river environment (right?) which seems to be softer water. But all cichlid info for gH seems to say btwn 50-100, so Im guessing my 300+ is totally off?. Also, not sure which is a closer match- South American cichlids or one of the African lake regions-and they're all kinda different from each other. (not sure what multipliers are used to convert degrees to ppm on all these parameters). I've never used a buffer (either acid or alkaline), and right now kH is btwn 100-120 on the strips. Im a little unsure on pH because strips say 6.8-7.0 but orange color doesn't really match up. Liquid ph is fairly blue- which would be 7.6. I've read all the places where Carl says "don't chase ph" so just watching that its stable vs particular number. Not sure if reagents get old, is that why liquid seems higher-and never really deviates from that color? Also, using strips- how long is best to wait to read? Im doing about a minute?
Also have always used tap water only (no RO/DI) (orange county,ca) which starting water strips out at: nitrate: 5ppm GH: around 150 KH: aound 120 PH: around 7.8-8.0
My current tank water is: nitrate: 160+ nitrite: 0 GH: 300+ KH: 120 PH: 7.2 (strip) 7.6 (liquid test)
Im guessing the large wondershell is kicking GH up? The dissolve rate has slowed down quite a bit since starting them about a month or so ago.
I finished with the medicated w/s last week so did 20% water change, used Seachem prime and stability plus 1 tsp API aquarium salt per 5 gal, added new large wondershell to existing old one (down to 20%), put carbon cartridges back in and added Matrix bio media(almost 500 ml in two plastic cartridges)and one 100 ml Purigen packet to help keep reducing the nitrates which are still around 160. I've ballooned 2 Algone packets every 4-5 days the past 3-4 weeks, about 8 packs. The good news is- tail and fins are much better, almost completely healed (from rot) and HITH seems not as deep and kind of filled back in. (hoping that was fixed using wondershells per by Carls info on getting proper mineral content back into tank).
Im not sure if there is something else I should do with this filter (Emperor 400) which I know- not high on the 'recommended' list. But aside from ditching completely, do I take it completely off and take fully apart and wash out to severly reduces nitrate? The reason I started with the Matrix was to be able to pull filters and Matrix media out(to maintain cycle bacteria) and do an "under faucet" cleaning of everything. Not sure if that'll fix it or not? thoughts?
Dont want to get too long here or the questions get kinda lost- Thanks for input. K
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kevin
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Post by kevin on Sept 14, 2014 18:06:24 GMT -5
Something else I've been looking for info on in the AAP and APA sites was on algae. Black algae to be specific. I know it uses up oxygen, but with having alot of it on an ornamental structure, could this be a source of the nitrate issue? I can't have plants or other fish, he'll just tear it up, so tank is fairly simple/empty. I'll try to attach picture below. Not working. Have to figure it out and repost below.
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kevin
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Post by kevin on Sept 14, 2014 18:09:48 GMT -5
This is the 65g. Structure with algae used to be kinda tan color. I don't have algae issues on glass and only minor on plastic plants.
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kevin
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Post by kevin on Sept 14, 2014 18:26:18 GMT -5
In referance to the above regarding water for my Tilapia, most of the cichlid info in AAP html noted above say ph at 6.8 to 7.8 or even 8. And a kh of 200+ for Rams, Discus etc. but in the article below:
Lowering High pH for Any Aquarium
Also; Providing Amazon/SE Asia River/West Africa Water For Fish such as Discus, Bettas, German Rams, Apistos (Apistogrammas)
It indicates lowering both ph and kh to make a soft water parameter(with added minerals. Guess this sums my water confusion above. Thanks, K
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Post by Carl on Sept 14, 2014 19:58:49 GMT -5
In referance to the above regarding water for my Tilapia, most of the cichlid info in AAP html noted above say ph at 6.8 to 7.8 or even 8. And a kh of 200+ for Rams, Discus etc. but in the article below: Lowering High pH for Any Aquarium Also; Providing Amazon/SE Asia River/West Africa Water For Fish such as Discus, Bettas, German Rams, Apistos (Apistogrammas) It indicates lowering both ph and kh to make a soft water parameter(with added minerals. Guess this sums my water confusion above. Thanks, K I am not understanding your confusion here? As for the Algae in the picture, this is most definitely BBA Here is one suggestion for the control of this difficult algae for "Aquarium Algae Control" Article at Aquarium Answers: "Do NOT use actinic lights or even 50/50 lights that contain actinic (blue) light as I have found BBA thrive on this light more than plants and will out compete with plants for essential nutrients, making it difficult to keep the leaves free of BBA. I strongly recommend 6000-7000 K lights ONLY!
More importantly, a 6500K light with balanced red and blue spectrums, with as little yellow light spectrum as possible has been shown considerably of late to make a big difference in control of BBA. To be VERY BLUNT, the light that has made a big difference has been the high output GroBeam LED lights, NOT T5, and NOT the low end LEDs being peddled in many forums such as the Finnex and Fluval LED lights.
Here is an interesting quote a person who keeps many planted aquariums that I know that address the BBA issue: "I use Flourish excel a couple times a week. Usually it is standard dosing but if an algae problem should arise I will on occasionally double or triple dose once. The BB algae issue has been MUCH less with the GroBeam LED lights then prior T5 lighting""Reference: www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2008/04/aquarium-algae.htmlCarl
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Sept 15, 2014 17:58:33 GMT -5
I would say the GH is a bit high, but not so much that it should be a huge concern. 500+ would be more of a concern. I would say, space some time apart when adding the wonder shells. Not when the other is at 20%. I have this same thing happen when I use a wonder shell, so I use a smaller size and, when it dissolves all the way I will take a reading. If it is 300+, I hold off like a week before adding a new one. You're doing it right for pH. So many people get different readings when they use a couple tests. My suggestion is to purchase another one and see what the reading is at or go with one tests readings and keep working on making it stable. (like you are doing now) The high Nitrates in the tank is due to high bio-load. This is also the cause of the issue for the BBA. Is the HOB the only filter in the tank? I would strongly recommend a Filter Max Sponge pre-filter on the intake of the filter if you don't already have one. You either need more filtration or more cleaning. I would think with how much this guy eats, there is a high bio-load. You might want to do a regular vacuuming of the tank too. Like once a week. I use the Eheim battery vacuum, which makes it so I don't have to do a water change every time I vacuum. This helps keeps my Nitrates down, along with all the filtration I have. " Vastly increases bio filtration capacity over many standard Aquarium Power Filters (HOB filters)." www.americanaquariumproducts.com/PreFilter.htmlFor the salt in the aquarium. It's 1 tbsp per 5 gallons, not 1 tsp per 5 gallons. Tablespoon not teaspoon. www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2008/03/salt-in-freshwater-aquariums.htmlCleaning the filter is not going to help much with Nitrates, in fact it's the good bacteria that is being store in the filter that you want to help. Adding a sponge filter and let it mature. That would help. You want to make sure there is a lot of good bacteria on these filter carts. and sponge filters to help eliminate nitrates. Cleaning is still required, but you could even rinse on filter cart. at a time. The one another time, that way there is always some good bacteria for the tank. Again for the BBA, the nigh Nitrates are not helping at all. This algae is caused by an excess of nutrients in the water, that the BBA is using. Having the correct lighting helps big too, but with high Nitrates, you will still have an issue even with correct lighting. Hope this all helps. I'm glad the guy is doing better. Each of these adjustments to the tank are only helping more!
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kevin
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Post by kevin on Sept 16, 2014 20:33:56 GMT -5
Thanks guys. Carl: The light is a GLO Aqua-glo, T-8, 40w, 48" so I'll look into AAP store for your suggestion, or at least what might be similar that'll fit in this fixture. Should I ditch the column structure for now to at least eliminate the BBA? (guessing thats blue/black algae?). I can at least clean glass if it gets on that. The "confusion" is this- 1)Is 7.6-7.8 PH and 120-200KH and 300+GH ok or should it be lower? 2)If Ive been using the tap water noted above-and getting these numbers, do I need to start changing to RO/DI with kh buffering or leave the way it is? 3)Tilapia is never noted by name, so would you say Discus is the closest match for water needs, food, etc?
Devon: 1) Got it on wondershells, and will get new liquid ph test and go by that. 2) Regarding bio-load, yes HOB only filter and I have the issue of the Marineland rectangular tube so can't just match up round Filter Max Sponge- and I've read all the benefits but not sure if fabricating a fix is beneficial. I've been rinsing general surface debris on the two carbon cart filters about weekly, but using Eheim every other day or as I see waste. I also watch him eat so no food left over-other than the little drift off. I also switched to Paradigm for carnivors, with a couple cubes of Omega One frozen Cichlid. But again, he either eats it or its vacuumed, and its what he can eat in about 5 min 1x day. Will the matrix cartridges (in addition to the carbon+filter material filters) help create more bene bacteria, that'll reduce that load- or does that still just process the load down to the nitrate level-which Im then again still stuck with? Should I just keep using the Algone packets? They don't seem to be enough. 3)I thought I had read with Cichlids to reduce salt to 1 tsp per 5g (from 1 tbl) in display tank and save the higher dose for 30 min baths...but I can't find where I read that so next water change I'll do TBL not tea. And thanks for picking up on that. 4) I saw pics of your tank and noted the comments about the algae on your leaves. What ARE the excess nutrients and can I reduce something on the other end to not have the excess?
Thanks to both for input.
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Post by Carl on Sept 17, 2014 9:01:07 GMT -5
I would definitely look into changing out this light. Keep in mind that even a 6500K looses much of its important spectrum and becomes more yellow after an average of one years use (about 4000 hours on time). Consider the T2 as well, although this or a T5 will require a fixture change For further reading: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquarium_Lighting.htmlYour water parameters are OK for your Tilapia and not a red flag for BBA, however it might be good to cut your tap water with 25% RO water. I should note that I have kept these Tilapia (Zebra Tilapia if I am correct in looking at your picture, aka buttikoferi) in water of higher pH, KH, and especially GH Here is just one other websites water parameter suggestions for these cichlids from West Africa: "Minimum Tank Size: 70 gallons Care Level: Easy Temperament: Aggressive Water Conditions: 72-82° F, KH 10-15, pH 7.8-8.6 Max. Size: 1' Color Form: Black, White Diet: Omnivore"Carl
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Sept 17, 2014 10:26:58 GMT -5
Devon: 1) Got it on wondershells, and will get new liquid ph test and go by that. 2) Regarding bio-load, yes HOB only filter and I have the issue of the Marineland rectangular tube so can't just match up round Filter Max Sponge- and I've read all the benefits but not sure if fabricating a fix is beneficial. I've been rinsing general surface debris on the two carbon cart filters about weekly, but using Eheim every other day or as I see waste. I also watch him eat so no food left over-other than the little drift off. I also switched to Paradigm for carnivors, with a couple cubes of Omega One frozen Cichlid. But again, he either eats it or its vacuumed, and its what he can eat in about 5 min 1x day. Will the matrix cartridges (in addition to the carbon+filter material filters) help create more bene bacteria, that'll reduce that load- or does that still just process the load down to the nitrate level-which Im then again still stuck with? Should I just keep using the Algone packets? They don't seem to be enough. 3)I thought I had read with Cichlids to reduce salt to 1 tsp per 5g (from 1 tbl) in display tank and save the higher dose for 30 min baths...but I can't find where I read that so next water change I'll do TBL not tea. And thanks for picking up on that. 4) I saw pics of your tank and noted the comments about the algae on your leaves. What ARE the excess nutrients and can I reduce something on the other end to not have the excess? Thanks to both for input. Hey. If a filter max on the HOB wont work out cause of the square intake, you can also considered a hydro sponge powered by an air pump. I'm just thinking the more biological filtration, the better for lowering you Nitrates. I would actually not rinse the carts from the filter that often. You are rinsing away your "good bacteria" when doing this. You can let you carts mature longer before rinsing them. And maybe even get them on a schedule where you are rinsing only one at a time, since this is the only filter in the tank. If you were to get a Hydro Sponge too, I would still recommend only cleaning only one filter at a time. It's these seeded filters that are keeping the cycle going and befitting the tank. This will work on Nitrates. Im able to rinse my like every 4-6 weeks and I vacuum like once a week. In my tank at first, I was battling Nitrates like at 40+. This was where I was getting some BBA from. Since my filters have mature and I've kept up on the weekly vacuums, the Nitrates have been much lower and I have no real BBA problem. My fish eat whatever there was and the new grow from my plants has no BBA! That and keeping good lighting. For me I use Co2 too for the plants. The Matrix will help with good bacteria, it just has to be in there a while for a good build-up. I would keep running the Algone and Purigen. All I know for the salt is 1 tsps. per 5 gallons, then to increase it for treatments, not just therapeutic, it's 1 tsps. per gallon... Per Carl's article. It's mature filters that will eliminate the Nitrates. You just need more filtration.
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kevin
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Post by kevin on Sept 18, 2014 18:47:42 GMT -5
Thank Carl for the lighting input. Should I get rid of the ornament with all the algae? or just clean it? or does it matter? Great on water, thats what I needed. I'll re read all the RO info. Not sure how to get that type of water other than purchase equipment. And yes, Buttikoferi. 17 yrs old.
Devon: I thought rinsing in old aquarium water or at least de-chlorinated tap (via use of prime) protected the good bacteria? I'll take your suggestions tho and slow it down and alternate cleaning. I'll see whats needed for Hydro Sponge. I actually have a second air pump not being used.
If I read you right, the waste isn't broken down in less than a week so vac will still work. I was just afraid if I left it in there, it would break down, then the bacteria would start cycling it and end up creating MORE nitrates. I'll keep using Algone and Purigen- maybe Im just being impatient. But I've been trying to knock this down from 200ppm since early july and Im still up around 160ppm, even after multiple water changes of 30%+. However I ran only that blue self-cut filter material for 3 weeks while I had the medicated W/S in so trashed that and started with new filter carts again recently.
So add more filtration-not just keep the existing cleaner--and i'll have more areas for bene bacteria, and thus reduce nitrates?
Thanks for both of your time and interest.
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Post by Carl on Sept 18, 2014 19:43:24 GMT -5
I would simply soak it in a 10 to 1 water /bleach solution then soak for a 5 minutes in water with a double or triple dose of water dechlorinator, then rinse again and your good to go! I would add filtration, consider Matrix and/or Volcanic Rock which will build beneficial anaerobic bacterial colonies that remove nitrates over time Unfortunately your ML Emperor Filter is probably the "king" of nitrate factories from my use/tests From the Aquarium Answers; Do Bio Wheels Work" article: "As for the Marineland Emperor Bio Wheel Filter, I have heard some unsupported arguments for this filter, HOWEVER in multiple observations where the Emperor Filter was replaced with a Hydro Sponge #5 (& smaller) (see resource earlier in the article) or another filter along with the use of SeaChem Matrix, tank conditions improved for many parameters, most notably KH, nitrates and Redox."Reference: www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2006/12/do-bio-wheels-really-work.htmlI would suggest following as many suggestion in the Nitrate Control article too. Regular vacuuming can help too Reference: www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2007/07/aquarium-nitrates.htmlCarl
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kevin
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Post by kevin on Sept 18, 2014 20:26:37 GMT -5
I re-read the articles on Aquarium-Pond-Answers on algae and control, as well as the lighting suggestions. LED a little out of my budget right now, so will try to get the 6500k and see on fixture for poss T2. Did get my answer on cleaning the ornament tho- boiling water.
Another question on the use of RO. I read the articles on AAP on the units and install, and wondered if using three 5 gallon bottles of distilled water, along with wondershells and possibly Seachem Replenish would get the 25%? Do I do 25% of overall tank? or 25% of any given size water change? Im just not sure I'd stay with amazon river type fish in next go at a tank so don't want to get carried away.
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kevin
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Post by kevin on Sept 18, 2014 21:13:50 GMT -5
Thanks Carl. Will do ornament soak. I watched a you tube from AAP of Devon on Hydro Sponges. For a tank 48" long, 27"tall, if I leave my ML Emperor in for carbon filtration and Matrix holder, and add sponge on other side of tank using air pump for better bio filtration, what size sponge set up? I'm already using two air tubes off pump so I could use one of those or is it best to just use its own pump? I was reading about not enough horizontal circulation if not using a power head?
Im using matrix, and Purigen, and will put Algone packets back in to keep working on nitrates. Thanks for suggestions.
Let me know on RO question from above when you get time. Thanks
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Post by Carl on Sept 19, 2014 10:10:34 GMT -5
I would simply use 25% RO in your "water change" water. This keeps it simple and allows for a slow change over time I would consider this more yo have healthy clean water than attempting an Amazon Biotope, which is most definitely not necessary for your Talapia Butterikofferi I would suggest a Hydro-Sponge #4 or #5. As long as the air pump has enough air capacity (such as the Fusion 700), you should be able to run both the filter and an air stone with the pumps. Product Resource: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Resunairpumps.htmlUsing a power head would certainly improve your horizontal circulation, which would not be all that good with only a HOB filter of any brand. The only consideration here is that sometimes large cichlids can over turn the power head from the sponge filter, so bracing with large rocks is often recommended. Product Resource: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Kingwaterpump.html#sunsunCarl
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kevin
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Post by kevin on Sept 19, 2014 14:53:39 GMT -5
Great. Thanks, I think the #5 probably best. Yes, he would definitely knock it over. I have stayed away from too much rock or edged ornaments, he tends to get scrapes on his side. I'll try the Hydro Sponge in corner and weigh down with something. The top of tube is just below surface, correct? If the sponge is 4" and tube is 18" (22" max) is that good in 27" of tank height?
I apologize for not remembering your note on the "bleach rinse" before commenting on "boiling water" to remove the BBA algae. I'll be more thorough in responding to answers. And thank you again.
Note on lighting: I have an Aqueon 8000k T-8 that fits my current fixture. Is this improving the red and blue light values, reducing the yellow? And Im not sure what it is or how to tell if a lamp is actinic or 50/50? I may have missed the explanation on the lighting page you referenced.
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kevin
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Post by kevin on Sept 19, 2014 14:59:21 GMT -5
oh, and is distilled Arrowhead water gonna be the same as using Reverse Osmosis water?
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Sept 19, 2014 16:34:34 GMT -5
oh, and is distilled Arrowhead water gonna be the same as using Reverse Osmosis water? I don't think it is. I couldn't find that it was on their website. This is what they do. • Source selection and monitoring • Source water receiving and monitoring • Water storage and monitoring • Micro-filtration • Ultraviolet light/ozone disinfection • Bottling control • Packaging control • Clean-in-place line sanitation process • Plant quality control and HACCP (Hazard Analysis Critical Control Point) • Corporate quality assurance program eservice.arrowheadwater.com/pages/ah/FAQAbtNestleWaters.aspx
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