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Post by devonjohnsgard on Mar 23, 2016 11:53:15 GMT -5
Interesting. There's been a handful of reduced products out, which is supposed to be more reduced. I'd wonder if someone has a reduced diet, would they need to do the reduced water. Or both would be better? It's a hard one and like Carl said too, everything has to pass through the acidic stomach.
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rogierfvv
Full Member
3rd time around aquarium keeper, observer, learner
Posts: 84
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Post by rogierfvv on Mar 23, 2016 15:34:19 GMT -5
Well, I don't know how to answer the stomach problem, but I do know that when I was in this field, I had a top-notch research biochemist on my science board, and he had an ERW machine at home, and he said there was not a biochemist he knew who did not have such a machine. The Shirahata research was quite revolutionary at that time. Of course the makers of the ionizers thought Dr. Hayashi was crazy with his hydrogen stick, but he may have the last laugh... Also note in this article how the author computes the rH, relative Hydrogen index from PH and ORP: h-minus-ion.vpinf.com/ORP-and-correlation-with-reducing-action.htmlI am thinking of ways to experiment with this in the aquarium environment... but for now my ORP meter is dead, so I'll have to get a new one, one of these days. Meanwhile, maybe someone else can think of something.
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Post by Carl on Mar 23, 2016 18:36:28 GMT -5
Well, I don't know how to answer the stomach problem, but I do know that when I was in this field, I had a top-notch research biochemist on my science board, and he had an ERW machine at home, and he said there was not a biochemist he knew who did not have such a machine. The Shirahata research was quite revolutionary at that time. Of course the makers of the ionizers thought Dr. Hayashi was crazy with his hydrogen stick, but he may have the last laugh... Well I arrived at many of my conclusions because what the current aquarium science of the time was clearly not explaining. I still get mocked in some Middle School like forums We do sell a ORP Meter which we use for tests: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquariumtestkit.html#redoxCarl
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Post by Carl on Mar 29, 2016 11:33:27 GMT -5
I have further updated the Redox article, here is a quote that includes a new link/reference: "Here is an excellent article further explaining how a battery works as it relates to Redox, both oxidation and reduction, and both Anodes and Cathodes (think Anions and Cations). This also explains why a mineral "salt such as CaCO3 (Calcium Carbonate) can have a positive (Cation) ion charge. Basics of Electrochemistry
What is noteworthy in reading the above article is it speaks of an ionic solution, which our aquarium water is not quite the same as a battery here (saltwater is more so than freshwater), however this also points out the importance of not using totally neutral distilled/de-ionized water to house your fish, as then there is definitely no ionic solution for this current. Quote from the above cited reference/article: "Ions in solution will move from an area of high energy toward an area of low energy producing, a current"."Reference: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Redox_Potential.htmlCarl
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Post by Carl on Sept 28, 2016 9:14:10 GMT -5
The Aquarium Redox article has once again been updated. This includes a link to a test for checking Redox health before and after a cleaning www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Redox_Potential.htmlExcerpt: "Redox, also known as Redox Potential, oxidation potential, & ORP (oxidation reduction potential) describes the ability for the loss of an electron by a molecule, atom or ion to the gain of an electron by another molecule, atom or ion. Without this ability to gain electrons, many minerals cannot be absorbed and properly assimilated, especially in times of stress. So it is very important to keep a healthy Redox Balance via proper dissolved oxygen levels, proper positively charged mineral levels (such as Calcium and Magnesium), and even level 1 or higher UV Sterilization.
It is also noteworthy that there is a correlation between Redox Potential and pH (Reference: University of Florida; Biochemistry of Wetlands)
Redox also relates to water changes and the amount/frequency there of. This article has information about using Potassium Permanganate in a very simple (& fun) test to determine the health of your aquarium before and after a water change: Aquarium Cleaning; Reasons (See Redox Section)
We should note that we have both slow and fast Redox reducers and slow and fast Redox oxidizers. Generally in a healthy aquarium regular use of "fast" oxidizers or reducers is not necessary (which the exception of occasional water conditioner use for chlorine reduction). Fast reducers or oxidizers also generally are relatively temporary, although chloramines are definitely a fast reducer that is not temporary."
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Post by Carl on Oct 13, 2016 8:52:48 GMT -5
I have updated the "Aquarium Redox" article. Here is an excerpt from the Overview section: Examples include: *Slow Reducers: AAP Wonder Shells, use of constant slow flow through water change with mineralized water, oolitic sand in reaction chamber.
*Fast Reducers: Most water conditioners
*Slow (or low level) Oxidizers: Products such as Methylene Blue, Melafix, Herbtana, Artemiss, even Purigen & "The Poly Filter Pad". This is a good reason to not use these products as a disease prevention tool (as many mistakenly do with Herbtana and Artemiss), only for occasional treatment use or at least in balance with products such as AAP Wonder Shells. This does NOT mean you should not use Purigen or Poly Pads, just be aware of this important negative side to Redox and counter these with AAP Wonder Shells or similar mineral reducers that are added slowly.
*Fast Oxidizers: Potassium Permanganate, Chlorine, Chloramines. While the use of Potassium Permanganate in an aquarium for clarifying or flukes control is certainly useful, this product should be very limited for use "in-tank"Reference: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Redox_Potential.htmlCarl
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Post by Carl on Jan 21, 2017 14:04:56 GMT -5
I have once more updated the "Aquarium Redox" article Here is an excerpt (that further deals with critics too): "Where the battery comparisons further work, especially for the nay-sayers who claim "we are only measuring ions with a GH test", is that as the calcium Cations are used up, the calcium tends to bind to anything in the aquarium, from objects to even coral in reef aquariums. I have observed this 100s of times (if not 1000s). Similar to this action in a battery: QUOTE: "When the lead acid battery accepts charge, the sulfuric acid gets heavier, causing the specific gravity (SG) to increase. As the SoC decreases through discharge, the sulfuric acid removes itself from the electrolyte and binds to the plate, forming lead sulfate." Reference: How to Measure State-of-charge"Reference: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Redox_Potential.htmlCarl
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Post by Carl on Feb 11, 2017 11:50:54 GMT -5
I have once more updated the Aquarium Redox article. This time a picture that demonstrates how UVC affects Reddox From the article: "The picture graphically displays the dramatic difference. In the control tank (left) and tank with a level one capable UVC Sterilizer (AAP 7 Watt Compact UV), potassium permanganate (which is a strong oxidizer) was added at the same rate. Potassium Permanganate reduces from a red color to brown to clear. It is very obvious the difference in the two tanks, which means that their is less oxidative stress to fish. Thus this increases the fish' ability fight off diseases in particular diseases such as Lateral Line disease in marine aquariums which seem to be more prevalent when oxidative stress is higher."Reference: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Redox_Potential.htmlCarl
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Post by childofiam on Feb 11, 2017 12:03:39 GMT -5
This could prove the difference between the good UV bulbs and the cheep ones you find on Amazon and eBay.
Richard
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Feb 11, 2017 14:41:18 GMT -5
This could prove the difference between the good UV bulbs and the cheep ones you find on Amazon and eBay. Richard !!! Yup, it's the only real way we've been able to show levels of sterilization, vs just clarification. It would be interesting to test low vs med pressure lamps.
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Post by Carl on Apr 6, 2017 8:37:03 GMT -5
I have updated our popular and cutting edge Redox article Here are a couple excerpts from the article: "Redox, also known as Redox Potential, oxidation potential, & ORP (oxidation reduction potential) describes the ability for the loss of an electron by a molecule, atom or ion to the gain of an electron by another molecule, atom or ion. Without this ability to gain electrons, many minerals cannot be absorbed and properly assimilated, especially in times of stress. So it is very important to keep a healthy Redox Balance via both sides of the Redox equation; (a) Normal oxidizers such as proper/optimum dissolved oxygen levels (b) To counter oxidative stress (often artificially induced in our aquariums); via proper positively charged mineral levels (such as Calcium and Magnesium) and even level 1 or higher UV Sterilization. "From the Summary Section: "Unfortunately some otherwise experienced aquarists in their writings or anecdotal forum comments fail to look at the research that has gone on the subject of Redox and stick to their old tired theories about Aquarium Chemistry and the affect of Redox thereon much the same way many continued to claim the "earth was flat" even when proven incorrect.
It is important to note, that just because many aquatic articles report only the importance of an oxidizing Redox, this does not make it true, science is not a vote!. It really is not that difficult to read outside (non aquarium hobby) articles that show otherwise. This is an unfortunate side of the aquarium hobby is that many will pass around old tired so-called facts as truths without reading anything that contradicts there theories masquerading as fact. Often these same persons will use "Red Herring" deflection arguments since they cannot refute the information provided here and in the cited references. A common "Red Herring" argument is so-called peer reviews, well when peers in this hobby refuse to understand the Redox Balance, despite growing information outside the hobby, how can there be peer review? HOWEVER this article in particular has received MANY positive reviews/compliments from outside the industry such as Dr. Mamoon Kundi and his research of how Redox affects human health. As well I have been consulted by many within the industry/hobby including Disney for help with their public aquariums"Reference: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Redox_Potential.htmlCarl
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Post by Carl on Apr 25, 2017 13:46:20 GMT -5
I have further updated the Aquarium Redox article to emphasize points where cave dwellers such as Kevin Grant have made personal attacks upon me in unmoderated Facebook groups (Planted Tanks) even though it is clear that they have read little as well as citation. Of course these persons never answer real questions, they only make personal attacks upon me or even those I cite. "SUMMARY:
This was in the past a relatively unexplored area of fish keeping that has many implications including prevention of HLLE in marine fish. As well there is still a lot to be learned here and I have to admit having to change my opinions based on newer evidence (I too thought that ONLY a high positive Redox/ORP should be maintained), my research is still ongoing and I try and read whatever I can on this subject, especially from outside the aquarium hobby, even if it may not fit with theories I hold. In fact this is now probably my most researched subject, with many outside sources cited here. As well, I have received emails from outside the aquarium community from medical researchers congratulating my conclusions as to Redox by citing current research and then applying it to aquariums.
Unfortunately some aquarists in their writings or anecdotal forum comments fail to look at the research that has gone on the subject of Redox and stick to their old tired theories about Aquarium Chemistry and the affect of Redox thereon much the same way many continued to claim the "earth was flat" even when proven incorrect. I CHALLENGE these few aquarium keepers with little practical aquarium experience who still challenge this subject (and likely still think the world is flat) to then answer as to why my many controlled experiments where everything was equal, but for methods of controlling oxidative stress such as the use on constant mineral replenishers & UVC, resulted in longer life spans of fish and higher disease resistance!! The facts are beyond the many citations here, there is much more information that is easily found as per the affects of oxidative stress in medical studies
It is important to note, that just because many aquatic articles report only the importance of an oxidizing Redox, this does not make it true, science is not a vote!. It really is not that difficult to read outside (non aquarium hobby) articles that show otherwise. This is an unfortunate side of the aquarium hobby is that many will pass around old tired so-called facts as truths without reading anything that contradicts there theories masquerading as fact. Often these same persons will use "Red Herring" deflection arguments since they cannot refute the information provided here and in the cited references. A common "Red Herring" argument is so-called peer reviews; unfortunately when peers in this hobby refuse to understand the Redox Balance, despite growing information outside the hobby, how can there be peer review? HOWEVER this article in particular has received MANY positive reviews/compliments from outside the industry such as Dr. Mamoon Kundi and his research of how Redox affects human health (and others cited within the article). As well I have been consulted by many within the industry/hobby including Disney for help with their public aquariums"Reference: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Redox_Potential.html#summaryCarl
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Post by Carl on May 9, 2017 11:32:24 GMT -5
I have updated the Aquarium Redox article. Here is an excerpt from the section dealing with healthy aquarium Redox maintenance methods (there are 10 points) "[9] Use of water conditioners (for use in chlorine/chloramine removal) during times of stress (especially oxidative stress) such as SeaChem Prime which are mostly all Reducers. However these products only temporarily reduce Redox and are not a long term solution. It also should be noted that aquarium water conditioners will often cause temporary cloudiness of aquariums due to their strong reducing abilities, however this cloudiness is short lived in healthy aquariums.
For more about aquarium water conditioners, please read this article: “Aquarium Water Conditioners”
[10] Use of Fish Food with Optimized Energy Levels; While well established in human nutrition, many are still not aware of the facts around free radicals and how the breakdown of fish food for energy contributes to this in fish as well, despite research by ufl.edu and ongoing research by fish food guru Clay Neighbors. "Free radicals are highly unstable molecules that are naturally formed when the fish converts food into energy. Free radicals can cause "oxidative stress," a process that can trigger cell damage, therefore limiting these free radicals by an optimized energy level will benefit your fish long term".
Reference, further reading: “Fish Nutrition”"Reference: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Redox_Potential.html#redox_methodsCarl
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Post by Carl on Jun 5, 2017 16:19:16 GMT -5
I have further updated the "Aquarium Redox" article Here is an excerpt: Be careful with over use of CO2. Generally CO2 use is not a problem. However if your aquarium is already struggling with Redox balance including the lack of constant mineral Cations, the use of Carbon Dioxide can lead to increased oxidative stress. During photosynthesis, the oxidized P680 (P680+) is subsequently reduced by an electron originating from water, which if your aquarium redox lacks sufficient reducers to give up this electron, can result in oxidative stress (the use of AAP Wonder shells can help here).
The facts are that CO2 can also create carbonic acid which will act as an oxidizing agent. As well Carbon dioxide can directly act as an oxidizing agent. You can see it clearly acting like one in the following reaction, where it oxidizes magnesium to form MgO(s): Mg(s) + 12 CO2 ? MgO(s) + 12C(s) References: *Magnesium Burns in Carbon Dioxide (reaction only) *P680, or Photosystem II primary donorReference: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Redox_Potential.htmlCarl
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Post by Carl on Dec 7, 2017 9:32:46 GMT -5
I have once again updated one of my most researched articles; "Aquarium Redox". Here is an excerpt: "RELATIVE HYDROGEN (or rH): This section on rH compliments of Rogier Van Vlissingen. This takes ORP reading a step further as to showing the true health of the water. The rH/Relative Hydrogen Score, is a better measure of whether the water is actually oxidizing or reducing than ORP is. ORP is a proxy, rH directly measures atomic H in the water, (which includes H-), so it is still not a direct measure of H-, but it's closer than ORP. In 1997 Prof. Sanetaka Shirahata of Kyoto University published a paper in BBRC (a peer reviewed journal, Biolochemical and Biophyscial Research Communications), which demonstrated for the first time that H- persisted in electrolyzed water, putting to rest an industry myth that the reason for the health effects of the alkaline water from electrolysis was the very alkalinity of it. Not so, it was the presence of H-, which science up to that point had believed could not exist but for nano seconds. Dr. Hidemitsu Hayashi pointed out that in several natural bodies of water the same thing was found, and he began manufacturing his mineral sticks, which were a much cheaper and more effective way to create HRW, hydrogen rich water. As per my history section later in this article, it was in part the use of Cation rich mineral blocks that I myself stumbled upon this concept after observing improved fish health. FURTHER (Quote from The Relative Hydrogen Score, aka the rH Score): The rH scale employs the same logarithmic Bar scale used to express gas pressure in terms of order of magnitude, and the rH scale runs from 0 to 42; 28 is mid-point (balance), below 28 is reducing, above 28 oxidizing... Therefore, an rH score of 0 would indicate maximum possible reducing (antioxidant) power, while a score of 42 would indicate the maximum possible oxidizing environment. So, rH yields a hydrogen proton-unbiased measure of absolute reducing potential of a substance; eliminating effects due to pH. rH is log1/hydrogen partial pressure; a one unit change in rH indicates a 10X change. E.g., a shift on the Barr scale of rH from a score of 27 to one of 26 indicates a 10X increase in reducing power. rH 28 = H partial pressure (pp) of 10^-28 atmospheres, an rH 11 = H pp is 10^-11 atmospheres, and a 0 rH is the rH value of pure hydrogen at STP. Again, as noted above, an rH score of 0 would indicate maximum possible reducing (aka “antioxidant”) power, while a score of 42 would indicate the maximum possible oxidizing environment. Nonetheless, ORP and better, rH, have found some degree of acceptance for many years in the fields of high-end aquarium keeping, wine and beer brewing, food storage and food safety as an indicator or relative antioxidant ability, and, since the mid-to-late 90's; in some sectors of the nutritional antioxidant field as an indicator of the same as well. It is somewhat important to note that ORP and rH scores have also been used to some extent for many years in the groundwater and waste water remediation fields as well as measures of relative oxidation or reducing ability of water. By keeping track of your measurements with a spreadsheet, you can track rH. Below 28 on the scale is reducing, above 28 is oxidizing... therefore any rH below 28 indicates anti-oxidant effectiveness of the water by the presence of atomic H, which will include H-. We are beginning to find healthy aquariums will have rH reading is between 23 & 28 (although as yet an exact number has not been established for marine aquariums, I suspect it is likely 25-30) You can use a spreadsheet to do the work. The most exact formula is rH=((ORP+205)/29.58)+2*pH), in simplified form it is ((ORP+200)/30)+(2*pH), but I see no reason not to use the accurate formula."Carl
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Post by Carl on Jan 20, 2018 10:57:01 GMT -5
I have further updated the Aquarium Redox article. Here is an excerpt from the Healthy Aquarium Redox Methods Section (4) Adequate Calcium, Magnesium, sodium, and general electrolyte levels, THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT! As noted earlier, this is an on-going process with a starting point to maintain a GH of 100 to 500 ppm (less for soft water fish, higher yet for African Cichlids and Marine). This is an incomplete picture as recent evidence shows that you may have an adequate amount of Calcium as per your test, but this calcium has given up many of the available electrons and is not aiding in your Redox balance. This is why using mineral blocks or similar concepts is so important. This also further disproves the point of many old aquarium myths about too high of a GH, as what your test is measuring may not be the whole picture since it cannot measure positive mineral ions that may or may not be present.
AAP Wonder Shells are very useful since they add important mineral cations on a constant basis. As well, products such as SeaChem Replenish, Instant Amazon, or Aragamix can be mixed with water and dripped into aquariums to achieve constant positive mineral ions. However I have not found that the use of crushed coral will dissolve at a rate to supply enough of these minerals to have much affect on Redox Balance. As noted earlier in this article, a test before and after using an aquarium water sampling with AAP Wonder Shell dust/shaving, showed an immediate +20% drop in Redox (ORP)
Another potential source is an ionic plenum filter, utilizing Calcium Bentonite (Cat Litter often contains this). Calcium Bentonite is a natural clay formed from the weathering of volcanic ash in the presence of water and has the potential of adding essential mineral ions back into the water column.Carl
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Post by Carl on Apr 6, 2018 9:47:35 GMT -5
THE REDOX POTENTIAL (ORP & rH) IN AQUARIUMS & PONDS; How It Relates To Good Aquatic (Fish/Invertebrate) HealthThis article has been updated. Here is an excerpt from this important read for any aquarium keeper moving past basics: "Another way to look at the Redox Potential in aquariums is to the relation of waste particles and acid production, as well as dissolved oxygen and most importantly depletion of key important elements. The more waste, the less Redox Potential (ORP) due to more nitric acid production and the depletion of key elements, but this is an over simplification as there is much more to it than this.
You really need to look at the electrolyte balance in your aquarium. Calcium, as well as Magnesium, are both important reducers, however they are both easily oxidized as well (see the graph in the Redox Basics section). As well the use of oxidizers that "scrub" your aquarium such as Purigen and Chemipure can throw off this balance. So for proper balance, which includes reduction, these elements or more importantly their "electrical charge" (positive ions/cations) need to be replaced!
Obviously high organic wastes also require an input of oxidation (higher Redox for Redox balance), but this should not be ongoing due to a poor balance of reducing to oxidation because of the lack of redox reducing mechanisms as well as a bio load the aquariums system cannot support. This is good reason to not overstock and aquarium, as there is a point where by it is impossible to balance your aquarium Redox other than for short term.
The nitrogen cycle requires an input of oxidation, but it also requires an input of reduction due to the excess oxidizers/free electrons (Anions) produced. Without this balance, one creates an environment where the fish could therefore be attacked by these Anions (although a planted aquarium may not suffer from this aspect as much since many plants utilize these nutrients prior to entering the nitrogen cycle). This is also the problem of a high bio load in an aquarium or pond. This fact is borne out in both my long term observations and tests."Carl
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Post by Carl on Jun 3, 2018 10:55:08 GMT -5
I've made another update to the "Aquarium Redox" article as new research as come to light just this year www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Redox_Potential.htmlHere is an excerpt: REDOX BALANCE
I have mostly discussed Redox Reduction and its misunderstood importance, however there does need to be a balance between reduction and oxidation for proper chemistry within a fish or most all living animal organisms.
Cellular redox balance is critical for maintaining normal function and preventing damage to DNA and proteins, which may lead to accelerated aging and more
While it is generally recognized that preserving cellular redox balance and preventing a high concentration of reactive oxygen species (ROS, i.e., free radicals) is crucial to maintaining healthy organ and systems in living organisms, scientists are still debating the specific species responsible for maintaining this balance.
A new discovery published in 2018 is about biologically-active sulfur species known as persulfides (R–SSH). Persulfides were initially believed to only form on proteins as a means of easily modulating the protein’s activity. However, recent research has demonstrated that the same enzymes responsible for producing H2S produce free persulfides enzymatically in cells. What makes persulfides particularly interesting is the wide variety of chemical reactions they can partake in, owing to the ability of sulfur to occupy eight oxidation states. Previous studies on persulfide chemistry, while limited, have demonstrated that persulfides have a greater reducing potential (greater antioxidant behavior) than most other sulfur species identified in cells. Taken altogether, our knowledge that persulfides are generated enzymatically in cells, combined with their enhanced reducing potential, indicates that persulfides may be key players in maintaining cellular redox balance. Where this might fit in with aquarium keeping might be very interesting, as healthy reduction to balance out oxidation is often what is missing in our aquariums (even among advanced aquarium keepers unaware of the importance of Redox Balance) for true long term health of aquatic inhabitants.
For the more scientific minded, the diagram/picture below explains how persulfides affect Redox Balance:
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