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Post by goldenpuon on Oct 29, 2011 15:17:23 GMT -5
I have a female black phantom tetra I have had for 1 year and 10 months along with two others in a 10 gallon tank with her.
Before I sold the male that was in with them, she was horribly chased and her fins were nipped almost to her body in some places. The tank was (and strill currently is) heavily planted with many hiding places. She would find a hiding place and then he would search out and continue chasing her. Now that the male is gone, she continues to be the least dominent of the females in the tank, but her fins are slowly growing back and the other two females nip and chase her away if she gets too close, but they leave her alone the vast majority of the time.
About the time that I got returned the male to the petstore I got him from about 2 months ago, I noticed a fairly large black spot around the base of her tail but it did not seem to be protruding much or at all. I decided to keep an eye on it and leave her alone.
Yesterday I saw her staying close to the top (not gasping but just swimming in place there) than is normal as if she was trying to swim down a bit (while staying in the same place) as if she had swallowed too much air. Today I see the same thing. I looked at her with a light and was surprised to see a few groups of small black dots around the base of her tail. before the beginning of her tail fin They are the right size to be missing scales. However, for her to be missing so many scales in one place and in groups does not make sense. I also am not sure if when a black phantom tetra loses a scale, if the area is black underneath.
I looked at the other two females with a light and don't see any black dots and both seem to be acting fine. As well, the affected female is not showing any other symptoms and appears to be eating and has the same amount of interest in food she does normally.
Does anyone have any idea what this could be? Is it likely a disease or something unrelated to how she is keeping to around the water's surface?
P.S. She is in a 10 gallon tank with a Whisper HOB filter and only the 2 other females. The tank has no gravel and is kept very clean.
Thanks. Renee
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Post by parker002 on Oct 30, 2011 16:26:11 GMT -5
Black dots almost sound like some kind of parasite. Have you Googled it just to see?
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Post by Carl on Oct 30, 2011 17:57:18 GMT -5
Can you take a close up picture? There is a black spot disease, but this is a saltwater parasite that even then primarily only affects Tangs. Are the dots/spots Ich sized or larger? If it is slightly patchy, their are form as of Saprolegnia that can be black (Saprolegnia is a mold). The brief history you posted here would lead me to believe this, but your description is not 100% Carl
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Post by goldenpuon on Oct 30, 2011 22:12:18 GMT -5
Thanks for the prompt response Carl. I doubt it is saprolegnia from the appearance, but I may be wrong. I included 2 pictures-of a healthy female and the fish in question for extra comparison. Your help is very much appreciated. When I looked at the tetra under a light, her spine (which can be seen in these kinds of fish under light) seems black and thick, more so than is normal. I failed to mention that I thought I saw this yesterday too, but with the extra light off, I could only really see the black groups of spots, so I dismissed it as maybe I had just been mistaken in what I saw. Speaking of the black groups of spots that look like missing scales, they don't really show up in these pictures because the fish are sort of "see through" in these. Still, I think that the pictures I put below should probably be sufficient. Lastly, I feel quite ashamed showing these because of how bad the fin damage is on these guys and guilty for not taking the most recent male out sooner (due to lots of persuading my mom to take him to a pet store a 1/2 hour away that would take the male) and before that, the other male black phantoms I separated from these females a year ago. The females' fins are so damaged that they are growing back very slowly or not at all. With the one male that I sold due to aggression, most of the fin damage was done before he was put in- from a combo of multiple males in with the females for several months and the serpae tetras I returned almost 2 years ago which did a number on the females' fins. With the male tetras I have had, (I don't have any now) throughout the time I had them, repeatedly made attempts to rearrange teh tank and put in more cover to diffuse aggression. Anyway, here are the pictures. I just wanted to clarify that I have tried to do my best with these fish. Female in question on the left, normal looking female tetra on right. Close-up of the female I am concerned about. Healthy female closest. Female that may be sick is turned at an angle in this picture. Both females from a front view. Renee
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Post by parker002 on Oct 31, 2011 8:41:52 GMT -5
Renee,
I really mean this with no malice intended, but BOTH of these fish look sick to me. I don't have black phantom's but I do have several other similar tetras. I have a long-finned white skirt and her fins are full and thick - the surface area of her fins combined exceed the surface area of the rest of her body. My red/blue Colombians are closer in body type to yours and their fins don't look anything like that.
I'm not sure what the black dots are - Carl would be the guy for that. But I would recommend some kind of treatment to help tissue restoration even if they're not sick. Do you have an Melafix?
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Post by Carl on Oct 31, 2011 9:35:31 GMT -5
As Parker noted, these Tetra look rather sick as per their fins deterioration. How long have the fins been deteriorating? Are the fins on the rebound? To me the black around the spine indicates a systemic infection. Admittedly I am not at all positive of the problem, in part because the fish do appear to be swimming and behaving normally from the picture and previous descriptions. What I would say is that this is a latent infection of Columnaris and I would treat as such with Kanaplex and Furan 2 & increased aquarium salt. As well a bath with Potassium Permanganate would be adviced. If you feel this is not all that serious, a combination treatment of Melafix and Pimafix may help, but not so much with any internal problems (the black around the spine) Carl
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Post by parker002 on Oct 31, 2011 10:01:34 GMT -5
Carl,
I was suggesting Melafix mostly because I think it works better as a soothing agent than it does as a true medication - I honestly haven't had much luck with it as a primary cure but I do see a difference in how quickly my fish rebound if I use it AFTER I've medicated.
Is that advisable?
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Post by Carl on Oct 31, 2011 10:12:09 GMT -5
Carl, I was suggesting Melafix mostly because I think it works better as a soothing agent than it does as a true medication - I honestly haven't had much luck with it as a primary cure but I do see a difference in how quickly my fish rebound if I use it AFTER I've medicated. Is that advisable? This is EXACTLY where this is a useful product. Melafix is a product (along with aquarium salt in FW) that often is both maligned or over recommended; however it is a very useful product in between these extremes just as you noted. such as this thread: Melafix Dangers; Gouramis, moreCarl
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Post by goldenpuon on Oct 31, 2011 11:48:31 GMT -5
Thank you for the helpful comments/feedback. I feel awful about these fish and feel very bad for them as I am tehir owner and responsible for their care and well-bing. I know it looks like they have finrot/fin deterioration. This is why I noted the extreme nipping they had gone through. However, a form of fin deterioration definitely is not out of the question and has certainly made their fins more suspetible to infection I'm sure. These fish have been like this for 6+ months and before that the fins were not as bad but damaged from nipping of the serpae tetras I had when I first got them and also multiple male black phantoms which I later removed from the tank due to aggression problems. It got worse with the male in there before I sold (he had next to no fin damage and was very beautiful , none of the females had the nerve to nip at him). As per the white on their fins, I *think* this is fin regrowth. These poor females have been through a lot as I noted with the chasing and nipping from the males so disease (even a latent variety) is not out of the question. The fish are pale in the pictures (including fins) due to the light I had to shine around them to get a good look at them and picture. They seem to pale out whenever a bright light is near them but darken back to normal when it is turned off. I am not sure if the fins are growing back and if they are, it is very slow. The damage is so severe that I don't think the fins are completely repairable. I am willing to do whatever I can to get their fins to regrow to whatever extent they can. I am hesitant to use very strong medications unless I am almost sure these fish have Columnaris which with their history, their looks mimic that of Columnaris and Finrot. I have Pimafix, Melafix, Furan 2, and Kanaplex all on hand if needed. There is a chance that the Pimafix and/or Melafix may be expired but I have barely used them. I am heavily leaning toward treating with a Pimafix/Melafix combo. I had success with these medications with a very sick guppy a few years ago that had Columnaris and made a full recovery but has since passed on. With this further explanation, would you recommend the Pimafix/Melafix combo over the Kanaplex anf Furan 2 or is this more of a judgement call? Thanks again for the help. Renee
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Post by Carl on Oct 31, 2011 12:51:50 GMT -5
Based on what you have noted with further information, i would give Parker's suggestion of a Pimafix/Melafix combo a try first.
As you already know, watch water conditions too.
Carl
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Post by parker002 on Oct 31, 2011 12:55:37 GMT -5
First of all, there's no reason to feel guilty. If there's one thing that's obvious from your posts here, it's that you're a FIRST RATE fish owner and not somebody who neglects their fish. So get that outta here! If your fish have suffered extreme fin damage like you say, they might not have fin rot, they just might not be healing due to some other reason. It sounds like they've been traumatized pretty severely by those other fish, for one. I actually agree that the whitish areas look like new fin growth rather than an infection. Perhaps the black dots are a systemic infection like Carl suggested and that infection is hindering tissue regeneration? I think at this point it's a judgement call. If the fish aren't showing any severe symptoms like a loss of appetite or sluggishness, I would tend to be conservative and treat with the Mela/Pima combo. That might help jump start the fin regrowth. Just keep an eye on the black stuff and have the Furan and Kanaplex ready if it starts to show signs of hurting the fish.
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Post by goldenpuon on Oct 31, 2011 22:55:37 GMT -5
Thanks for all the help and valuable input Carl and Parker! I got home from college tonight at 10:30pm and had chores after so I did not have a chance to look at this post before (other than briefly going on EA during a class break).
Thanks as well for the support Parker. I often tend to be too hard on myself sometimes over things with my fish because I am their owner and am responsible for their well-being. I looked at the fish again closely shortly before I left for college and didn't see anything fluffy or that otherwise hinted that the white on the ends of their fins were from disease. I am pretty sure it is fin regrowth.
I have decided to go ahead with the Melafix/Pimafix treatment. Even "if" they do are not sick, it will definitely help with their fins. Luckily, they are due for a water change (I change 1/3 of the water every 2 weeks) so that will allow me one less water change (since meds more better with new water) and also help the medications work more effectively.
I tested their water just now and got the following numbers. I have not changed the water yet. These numbers are pretty normal for before a water change because the tank is quite understocked with just three 1 inch tetras.
Nitrate: 10 or less Nitrite: 0 GH: 150-180 KH: 120-150 PH: around 7.5
If I can, I am going to do the tetras' water change tonight and of course add the Pimafix and Melafix when I do that.
Renee
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Post by parker002 on Nov 1, 2011 19:32:36 GMT -5
Good choice in my opinion. Keep us posted on their progress.
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Post by goldenpuon on Nov 2, 2011 4:08:11 GMT -5
I did the water change and added the Melafix and Pimafix. I am concerned however because the Pimafix was a milky color (which I *think* only happens when it is old). Aafter adding it, found a VERY hard to read label that said it had expired in October of 2010! I am concerned that it may harm the fish (although I hope not). The fish seemed Ok right after I added it but have not checked since because I did the water change very late and turned off the light immediately after. (I had work, then did volunteer work for a few hours for Carl, and the alarm didn't go off despite setting it early in the morning so I could water change before work. So unfortunately, I wasn't able to do the water change and add the Melafix and Pimafix until very late at night. ) When I looked at the fish today and during the water change, they seemed the same as a few days ago. One of the females (not the two in the pictures that I posted) is hiding more than she normally does (though she seemed fine during the water change). I hope it is just all the fear of the light and me staring at her and the other tetras more lately that is scaring her, not an illness. I am keeping an eye on her. With these females, it is not uncommon for them to go behind plants where I can't see them much (due to the dense plant cover and also probably since the fish have been chased so much in the past) during some of the day or at night when they are sleeping. My biggest concern with this fish (again, not the one with the black area around her tail) is that she didn't seem to want to come out for feeding today. This is something the tetras always come out for if they are hidden. Renee
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Post by parker002 on Nov 2, 2011 8:22:25 GMT -5
I've had new Melafix appear milky before but that doesn't mean it wasn't sitting on the shelf for a year. It also turns white if you mix small quantities of water with it, so it might have drawn some moisture. I don't think it's gonna be a problem.
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Post by Carl on Nov 2, 2011 11:04:43 GMT -5
I've had new Melafix appear milky before but that doesn't mean it wasn't sitting on the shelf for a year. It also turns white if you mix small quantities of water with it, so it might have drawn some moisture. I don't think it's gonna be a problem. I agree, this is not a problem. Also see: Aquarium Medications; Best Used By/ Expiration DatesCarl
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Post by goldenpuon on Nov 3, 2011 10:48:16 GMT -5
I am glad to know it isn't. I was worried there for a moment. As for an update on the fish, ALL three were out of hiding last night and were eating fine/seemed more calm than the past several days. This morning, the same is the case which is very good. Thanks for the link as well. I read the article and was happy to read that aquarium medications take longer to expire than is said in their expiration dates (and also that Melafix was mentioned specificly here). I did know that medications don't normally expire near their expiration date, but reading this and learning a little more about it is very helpful. Renee
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Post by parker002 on Nov 3, 2011 11:12:10 GMT -5
The thing about Melafix is that it contain melaleuca oil, which is a soothing agent. While it certainly has been reported to have antibiotic and antifungal properties, it's also used in burn remedies, shampoo, and all kinds of other stuff where tissue "calming" might be needed.
I kind of think of it like this - if you have a cut, you put Neosporin on it. But if you have cracked, dry skin, usually a lotion is all it takes. Melafix is a "lotion".
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Post by goldenpuon on Nov 4, 2011 15:47:24 GMT -5
Thanks for the informatative Parker. I know that Melafix is a soothing agent, but never really thought of it was used in so many things. Update: The fish seem less scared and looked at them with a light today (which probably means they'll be more scared again for a couple days. ) I'm not seeing any changes in the fish with the black spine with how she is near the top. She seems to be hanging out around or near the top and floating a bit upward too as if she swallowed air like before. The black around her spine doesn't seem any worse or better, but I was unhappy to see one new black dot (unless I missed it before which is possible) that looks like a missing scale (like the other dots that are is the outside of the fish). However, this time is not near her tail and midway between her tail and head. Still no signs of whatever this is from the other tetras in there luckily from a brief glance. The fish's fins seem the same, but I didn't look super closely. There appears to be new fin growth (like before) and don't see any signs of the fish damage worsening. Renee
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Post by goldenpuon on Nov 9, 2011 0:04:54 GMT -5
Update: The fish seems weaker than before and her bouyancy problem (with going to the top) is worse. I have not looked closely, but have not seen her gasping. However, she seems to be in distress with somewhat swollen gills as of yesterday. She is still eating from what I can see but does not seem to be doing well.
The other two tetras seem to be doing well with no signs of illness other than mild buoyancy problems which are much more minor than the sick female, but are worth noting. I try to feed them underwater, but often forget and put the food in on the top of the water and let it get pushed underwater by the current from the filter and bubbler. (I always remember for my goldfish Puon though who has genetic based bloating issues of course.)
Today was my last time giving the fish the Melafix/Pimafix combo before I redadd the filter carbon (it was a fresh one) and do a water change. I noticed that the tank walls seem to be a bit slimy (most likely from lack of a filter carbon and perhaps from properties of the Melafix and Pimafix).
I am unsure of why the female is acting this way, but I think it "may" be that she is very very sensitive to the Pimafix/Melafix and that she may be having symptoms from it. I have not done a water change since I first added the Melafix/Pimafix combo as per lack of time and the directions not asking me to do so (although ideally I would). I have been giving the fish the full dose of both medications added at once (1 teaspoon (5mL) of Pimafix and Melafix once per day per 10 gallons of water.
For now, I have further blanketed the tank to make it darker to help the fish with stress and will be adding the carbon to remove the medication first thing tomorrow. I would do it now, but am not sure if the worsening symptoms are from super sensitivity or illness and believe the fish will be able to handle under 12 hours more with the meds in. However, I may just add it in early just in case.
I am planning to take look further into what the fish has and wait a bit before trying anyhing else. I am almost positive her problem was brought on by exscessive stress from being chased and perhaps may even not be a disease, but a physical stress response. Therefore, I want to be very careful if I choose to add any more medications later on given how the affected female is acting ("possibly" due to her weakened immune system that could make her hypersensitive to medications even as mild as Pimafix and Melafix).
Renee
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