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Post by brenda on Oct 2, 2008 19:09:06 GMT -5
I am just wanting opinions on if I made the wrong decision...My female has only been holding since Sunday....I have been catching fish little at a time (when there easy) putting them in a smaller tank so they are easier to catch to take to LFS Monday.(got to get ready for my new colonies) Anyways, my holding female was right there so I snagged her up and moved to her own holding tank. Was that the wrong decision? I didn't have to chase her or anything it was like a 5 second ordeal literally. I know everyone says wait 10-15 days but it was so opportune.
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Post by bikeguy33 on Oct 2, 2008 19:34:06 GMT -5
my only concern is stress. If she is fine tomorrow......all will probably be just fine....
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Post by eve on Oct 3, 2008 3:00:42 GMT -5
if she is all by herself in a separate holding tank, i would actually not worry about it
the fry have actually a much better chance to grow that way, because the female doesn't get chased
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Post by brenda on Oct 3, 2008 8:48:41 GMT -5
Yes, she is all by herself. That was my thinking too...She actually looked a little more stressed in with all those other fish and since she was SO easy to catch I thought it would be less stressful on her but we'll see. I left the light off since I put her in there last night. She looks to still be holding but I 'll know better tonight.
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Post by Carl on Oct 3, 2008 9:13:06 GMT -5
Since she still appears to be holding, I think she is likely "over the hump". My thoughts are that she would let go immediately after being moved if she is to let go of her eggs.
Also the lack of stress is a good thing IMO.
Carl
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Post by jonv on Oct 3, 2008 12:42:53 GMT -5
Well as you know it's in your best interest if you want a group to make it, you have to do this. In some tanks that have a very heavy amount of decor, a few would find a good spot that adult males couldn't get them and make it themselves. but most would get eaten. The first spawn I had about a year ago maybe a little more, was the Electric Yellows. When I tried to net her up, she wasn't going easy and usually the process of netting itself is a stress factor, but a necessary one.
To me the biggest risks of doing that are involved in first time holding females. They are still learning what to do. There is a significant factor this could cause a first timer to lose the brood if you try to get them too early is all. If that ever occurs, I've seen it's ok and doesn't seem to cause major harm. Many times the second time around is usually successful.
I'm sure John(8) who has significantly more experience with this then I do can go into greater details also. I think once you get her in her own tank, the rest is fine. I think there are cases where it's a new tank, new place, where am I occurs and they could stay stressed a day or two more, but again the biggest thing really is those first timers. I did have the female nimbo abort her last two broods for whatever reason. Still not really sure why though. First time she dumped a brood, she did it right in the net, and this was after she'd already had one brood make it. Second time, she dumped or swallowed them in the tank before I could even net her. It happens sometimes.
If it does happen, just start giving more protein again, and wait for the next time is all you can do. I also imagine since I've never been that lucky to end up with multiple females, that having multiple females keeps males occupied enough that netting out a holding female isn't as critical as if you end up like my cases, where you have multiple males and a single female. For whatever reason mother nature did it, males just don't seem to recognize that female has already spawned and just see female, let me bother her.
I've seen in bother CF and another forum where stipping a holding female was promoted quite a bit. I can't say that stripping shouldn't be done, but I've never done it myself. The closest I've come to that was that brown peacock I posted today, was about a week into having let the brood go, and I wanted to move her out, but she was still taking her fry back to her mouth. I had to net her and hold her upside down to make sure she didn't carry any of her fry back to the main tank.
Stripping, especially in first or second time females holding, usually ends up in a degraded ability to carry a brood to term. In my opinion, it's critical to allow a female to carry about a brood at least 2 preferrably more times. If you strip a female early in her life, she'll never get imprinted on what to do. I suppose stripping plays an important part in mass breeding where you just want the female to spawn and you can do the care for the fry yourself. In cases like us, private home keepers, this to me isn't very practical. If you end up with a female that doesn't know what to do, and you strip her, you're actually making more work for yourself if you want fry to make it. You're pretty much going to have to strip that female each and every time she does spawn as she won't know how to hold that brood the full term.
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Post by brenda on Oct 3, 2008 12:52:59 GMT -5
Thanks Jon. I too am not into doing the stripping. I do see a lot of people promoting stripping them also. I am going to just let mine do it the natural way. I only moved this female this early because I didn't have to chase her and stress her more with the net. She basically swam right into it. If I would have had to chase her I would've left her there longer.
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Post by jonv on Oct 3, 2008 12:59:45 GMT -5
Just want to add too, in case newer joining people to our group read this over, my females all stayed in the holding tank a week to 10 days, then about a month or two up in the 100 before I put them back in with the males. John (8) talked to me numerous times about the dangers of having a female back in too soon before my first spawns ever occurred so I was ready and knew what to do. When I was speaking of the female Nimbo had already spawned a brood, we're talking 6 weeks earlier so I'm ruling out spawning again too soon to why she spit her two other broods out.
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Post by 8 in the Corner on Oct 3, 2008 22:53:21 GMT -5
I do see a lot of people promoting stripping them also. I am going to just let mine do it the natural way. I only moved this female this early because I didn't have to chase her and stress her more with the net. She basically swam right into it. If I would have had to chase her I would've left her there longer.
In my opinion, stripping is done to get the female back in the tank with the male and get her spawning again right away. Not in the best interest of the females as far as I am concerned.
I have done stripping, early in my career as a cichlid keeper, but only because someone had told me it was a good thing to do, to keep her from spitting them in the community tank and having them get eaten up by the other residents. At the time, I didn't have 25 tanks running with empties waiting for single females, so I took his advice.
Typically the mothers will continue to hold the eggs or fry even after rough handling and netting. I was stripping a large red zebra mom and she slipped out of my hand into the bucket with the fry. She immediately started picking them up again and I had to do it all over.
In a completely opposite experience, I have also had a couple swallow the eggs immediately upon being netted and placed into a spawning net or separate tank. So, bottom line, I think the more experience and time with the eggs in her mouth the mother has, the better your chances will be of her not swallowing them or spitting early.
I think, the longer you leave her in the community tank while she is holding, the better chance you have of her carrying to term and taking care of them once you transfer her. Also, as you say, with yours, it was quick and no stress was involved. I'm sure she will be fine and be a great mom to the fry.
John
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Post by jonv on Oct 3, 2008 23:03:49 GMT -5
Very well put John, thank you very much!!
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Post by brenda on Oct 5, 2008 10:52:52 GMT -5
Well, she is still holding, so I guess that means she will probably be fine. I'll keep ya updated. Thanks for all the advice as always.
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Post by Carl on Oct 5, 2008 11:45:40 GMT -5
Well, she is still holding, so I guess that means she will probably be fine. I'll keep ya updated. Thanks for all the advice as always. Thanks for the update Brenda! I agree.  Carl |
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Post by brenda on Oct 15, 2008 9:28:57 GMT -5
Well, it has been 3 weeks and 3 days...she should spit anytime now!!! Yay!!!! She is in with my 1 little Rubescen baby...Do I need to worry about her eating him?
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Post by 8 in the Corner on Oct 15, 2008 11:05:45 GMT -5
Well, it has been 3 weeks and 3 days...she should spit anytime now!!! Yay!!!! She is in with my 1 little Rubescen baby...Do I need to worry about her eating him?
Is the little peacock big enough to do damage to them? Big enough to eat them?
John |
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Post by brenda on Oct 15, 2008 11:19:11 GMT -5
No, he is only like .25" long...He is only about a month old, if that.
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Post by bikeguy33 on Oct 15, 2008 11:59:25 GMT -5
i agree with John then. i would have to assume all will be good unless he starts going at the lil ones. if he doesn`t, he is vertually no threat at all.
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Post by jonv on Oct 17, 2008 15:07:36 GMT -5
I'd very much agree with John and Bill here Brenda, and I'll say something here, and this isn't meant to be anything contradictory, just as an advisement.
Even females could see other females as a threat. That's how I lost my adult breeding Flavus female, because I had her in the same tank as the holding Nimbo female. Of course seeing the tank is only 15 gallons and only some fake plants to keep it from looking plain, there isn't much space for two females like that, however, at that time, I wouldn't have thought females to be THAT aggressive and learned the hard way, that even females could fight other females.
This also seems to be an unusually long holding period. Most of my first time females had let theirs out by 20 days at the latest. If you aren't seeing any by now, out and free swimming, I'm suspecting she's nervous and keeping a VERY tight guard on them. Very soon though, those fry are going to get a mind of their own and the mom, even if she's more protective then typical females are, is not going to be able to keep taking them back in.
Like what John said, most cases, it's the fry wanting to go back to momma and she's usually having to keep her mouth closed and blocking them out.
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Post by goldenpuon on Oct 17, 2008 15:54:55 GMT -5
Jon V, I hope she was able to eat a little during these 3 weeks! I don't know much about cichlids and I'm not trying alert you Brenda but could her health be detriorating by not eating for 3 weeks if this is the case?
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Post by brenda on Oct 17, 2008 17:12:55 GMT -5
They don't eat while they are holding...So yes it has been 3 weeks and 4 days. That is also why I won't move her right back to the big tank...I will feed her up good before moving her back because she hasn't eaten for so long.
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Post by eve on Oct 17, 2008 20:00:56 GMT -5
it's very important, that once she spits to get her strength back up, by feeding her no, they don't eat at all renee that's the reason they get so slim  |
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