dying fish

[polaris96]

Tank Size: 10
Age of the tank: 6 months
pH: 7
Ammonia: 0.25
NitrAtes: 15
nitrites: 0
GH/KH: 300 / 53.7
Temperature: 80 F
Fish in your tanks: yes
Fish:

coreys gouramis barbs
tetra
cherry shrimp

Question/Problem:

about five days ago i bought a ram, 2 ottos, and a corey. 36hrs later, the ram and 1 otto died. the next day, the other otto died. the corey is still alive and it came from the same store tank as the ram.

This morning, one gourami died. it wasn't a new fish. i'm worried some pathogen may have invaded my tank with the new fish. is there a way to tell? Also, what action can I take?

I've heard many antibacterial/antivirals can't be used if there are shrimp in the tank. can i do anything?

[goldenpuon]

I am not an expert in this field but maybe I can help.

You numbers look pretty good aside from the ammonia which is .25 which concerns me slightly. Of course, it would also be slightly elevated from the number of dying fish.

First, what (if any) symptoms did the fish show before they died?

Also, when did you last clean the tank? (is it dirty?)

Is there anything toxic that may have gotten into the water? (chemicals, med overdose)

Last, did you add any fish recently that may have been carrying pathogens?

Hope this helps and good luck with your fish. Hope the rest make it.

[polaris96]

Thanks for the advice

I'm not concerned about 0.25ppm NH[3-4], which is barely detectable on an API test. Also, the tanks has been stable at 0.25ppm for 6months.

As I mentioned, I added the new fish, which I fear may have been infected, about five days ago. Of the 4 fish I added, 3 are now deceased, along with one of my regular tank fish. So, yes, I am very concerned about pathogens.

So far as toxicity or dirt goes, the tank is clean. water is double filtered with a UGF and an external canister filter with a sponge prefilter.

I don't ever vacuum the tank due to presence of live plants. That's also why the Nitrates are high - I add flourish.

Thanks very much for the help. Can anybody advise if A) it's reasonable to worry my tank might be infected, and B) if so, what measures can I take that won't hurt my shrimp?

[Carl]

First, your nitrates are perfectly acceptable, not high
See: Aquarium Nitrates; Aquarium Answers

As for measures you can take, this is indeed difficult with the Shrimp you have.
Unfortunately this is likely to be an infection, especially since otos are generally imported and along with the other fish that have died, quite sensitive to both water conditions and diseases.

My best answer is not all that helpful, but that is prevention via a quarantine or extended Methylene Blue Bath to hopefully stop diseases before entering the tank.
As well the use of UV Sterilizers can dramatically stop or at the very least slow the progression of water borne pathogens. The UV Sterilizer can also aid in improving Redox for better fish immunity

Please see this article for more about the subject of disease prevention:
A Healthy Aquarium, Disease Prevention

At this point you might be best off by removing the shrimp and treating , possibly with a strong cocktail such as ParaGuard along with Furan 2
Also consider looking through this four page article:
Aquarium Medications

The use of almond leaf extract has been shown to lower the incidence of Aeromonas Bacteria, which can often form in tanks that are not vacuumed. This will add tannins that will yellow your water, but this is quite natural and Rams, Corys, Otos do better in the tannin rich softer water it provides.

Finally, I still vacuum my planted aquariums, just carefully in areas of roots (usually the top 1/2 inch layer in areas of heavy roots and deeper in other areas)

Carl

[polaris96]

Thanks a lot Carl. As always, your advice is succinct and very sane.

I have a few follow up questions on the points you made, though.

How can I remove the shrimp? I realize the question must sound ridiculous, but they're REALLY kind of small and I've no idea how to get them out or even make certain I've gotten them all. Is there a trick?

Can I add almond extract without removing the shrimp?

Also, since we seem to be in the realm of holistic fish medicine, what about seachem garlic extract? would it be an appriate additive as an immune tonic?

Also, would pushing up my salt (NaCl) level be a good idea? I've got about 1tbsp per 5gal concentration at the moment.

The use of UV really burns, because I'm deep in the throes of constructing a UV sterilizer, but I won't be finished soon enough to use it in this instance. Work's taking a lot, these days, and I haven't got any hobby time.

For everyone's general knowledge, after reading Carl's article on UV sterilizers, I did some research on the UV transmissivity of materials readily available to the homebuilder.

FORGET about using a coil of transparent hose (that means ANY hose, but especially vinyl) to circulate water around a UV tube. Commonly available materials are basically opaque to UV light - you can see through them in the visible spectrum but they're like dark glasses in the UVB and UVC ranges. Also, the UV radiation yellows vinyl very quickly.

The most efficaceous model seems to be a "wet" system that places the water directly against the bulb's glass envelope (it's a special recipe of glass. Normal "soda ash" glass is also opaque to UV. This is causing me headaches, now because some recipes of glass are water soluble and I can't seem to track down the recipe for CC UV tube envelope glass. I need to know if the water will dissolve the envelope before I soak a UV lamp inside a steel tube.)

When I've got the bugs worked out I plan to put design guides for both a UV sterilizer and a canister filter in the "do it yourself" section of this forum. Unfortunately, it will come too late for my current crisis.

I'll try the Shrimp removal / medication method as soon as I can get some free time.

[Carl]

How can I remove the shrimp? I realize the question must sound ridiculous, but they're REALLY kind of small and I've no idea how to get them out or even make certain I've gotten them all. Is there a trick?

Can I add almond extract without removing the shrimp?

The best I can suggest at this time for catching shrimp is placing a deep fine mesh net in a section of the aquarium and chasing them into the net.

The Almond Leafs products (such as Bio Lif) are shrimp safe

Also, since we seem to be in the realm of holistic fish medicine, what about seachem garlic extract? would it be an appriate additive as an immune tonic?

I have (along with others I know) not had good results with garlic preparations, but it might be worth a try.

While on this subject, preparations with Organic Herbals Based On Naphthoquinones have been more successful in my admittedly limited experience with them (as well as others I know too).
Kordon Herbal Ich Attack is one such product utilizing Naphthoquinones

Also, would pushing up my salt (NaCl) level be a good idea? I've got about 1tbsp per 5gal concentration at the moment.

This can help too, however with the type of fish you have, a higher concentration in a more short term bath might work better

Carl

[polaris96]

Looks like I dodged a bullet.

I did 33% water exchanges each day and I pushed up my KH and Salt levels.

No additional fish have died. Everything in the tank seems happy.

I'm going to gradually let out the salt level by continuing the exchanges every other day for the remainder of the week.

I'm also noticing now that I had increased the tank temp to 80F for the benefit of the ram. Most websites say ottos don't like it hotter than 78. I may've stressed the poor buggers.

I'm also reading ottos are difficult to acclimate and that certainly agrees with my experience. I've owned 3, so far, and none have survived more than a week in the tank. I'm not proud of this stat, but I really like the antics of ottos and I may try again in the future.

Thanks for all the good advice, everybody.

[Carl]

I'm also reading ottos are difficult to acclimate and that certainly agrees with my experience. I've owned 3, so far, and none have survived more than a week in the tank. I'm not proud of this stat, but I really like the antics of ottos and I may try again in the future.

I agree, however with very careful acclimation (this includes the importer which the average aquarium keeper has little control over) and top notch aquarium conditions they be kept. That said, they are generally not a fish I recommend.

I hope your over the hill with these problems

Carl

[parker002]

I had terrible luck with otos and bottom dwellers in general. I have one cory that survives to this day but over the first 8 months with my 55G I lost 2 plecos, a half dozen cories, and all 3 otos.

Also, be VERY careful turning up your tank to 80F. Shrimp are very sensitive to low dissolved oxygen levels. If you notice shrimp hanging out at the top of your tank, it's likely that there's no enough oxygen. Lower water temp improves dissolved oxygen levels.

[parker002]

Jun 3, 2010 19:49:53 GMT -5 Carl said:

The best I can suggest at this time for catching shrimp is placing a deep fine mesh net in a section of the aquarium and chasing them into the net.

I have one of these:



Take the net off of the frame and use it to catch your shrimp - I've used it for similar tasks like catching small fry and it works well.

[kagome]

Rams don't necessarily need the temp to be as high as 80 degrees. My are quite happy at 76. With Rams I take about an hour to acclimate them and put some MB in the bag and slowly scoop in tank water about a 1/4 cup at a time.

[parker002]

Jun 8, 2010 21:59:44 GMT -5 kagome said:

Rams don't necessarily need the temp to be as high as 80 degrees. My are quite happy at 76. With Rams I take about an hour to acclimate them and put some MB in the bag and slowly scoop in tank water about a 1/4 cup at a time.

That's good news, because my personal experience is that 80F is too high for shrimp.

[polaris96]

Thanks for the input, all.

I'd like my tank slightly cooler, I guess. Right now, it seems to hang at 79 -80F in the ambient environment - summer in New York and I don't like central air. I also don't want to purchase or fabricate a chiller for a 10gal tank.

Can I put a couple ice cubes in?

[bikeguy33]

you can....but that is a constant battle. merdoch had limited success using frozen soda bottles.

[polaris96]

how much temp can I tolerate? I'm peaking at about 86F. The fish seem ok, but I'm a bit worried, now.

I have two glass snapple bottles filled with a water / vodka mix freezing now. I'll try that method first, I guess.

[Carl]

Many Amazon River Basin Fish can tolerate this temperature OK, but for other "tropicals" and especially goldfish, temperatures above 84 can add to stress.

Here is an excerpt from my Freshwater Aquarium Basics Article dealing with Cooling:
"Cooling; sometimes cooling a tank in the warm summer months can be an issue, and most freshwater aquarists cannot afford an expensive chiller (which can cost $500 +).
A few suggestions include floating frozen 2 liter plastic pop bottles in the aquarium and the use of a wet towel draped over the tank with a fan aimed at this towel (this works similar to human perspiration). The wet towel/fan method is more efficient for larger aquariums and tends to have less temperature swings, however sometime the frozen bottle method is needed for quicker lowering of temperature; as well both methods can be combined.
I often had clients leave a wet towel & fan on their tank before leaving for work, then add a frozen bottle when they come home.

Other options can simply be to add a small room air conditioner and set it at a high setting of 78 F. This can often be cheaper than both the purchase and operating cost of an aquarium chiller in my experience."

Carl