Water clouds with Flourish Iron

[polaris96]

Relatively new to all of this. First let me thank everyone on this site and americanaquariumproducts.com for all of your advice. I'm grateful that there's plenty of real science going on here, in addition to the anecdotal stuff (which is just as important, but much easier to find).

I've got a 10gal planted freshwater tank with community fish (tetras, barbs, 1 gourami, and 2 corys) and some cherry shrimp. Currently using a gravel filter with sponges on the outlets. I add flourish excel every other day and a weekly dose of flourish and flourish iron.

The iron makes my water cloudy for about two days (sometimes three). Is this normal? should i reduce the dose? maybe spread it over several dosings? I doubt the dose is too high because I never show ANY iron content when I test the water (defaulting to the recommended 1mL/10gal)

The tank looks wonderful when the water's clear Anyone had this issue?.

[Carl]

Welcome to EA!

Sorry it took a while to get around to this post

What Iron supplement do you use?

What are your other parameters?

I have not had this happen, but this seems to describe a precipitation out of solution problem (although not a big problem IMO).
The question is why this is happening; my thoughts are your Iron is causing the temporary precipitation of carbonates and calcium/magnesium, especially if your GH or KH is quite high

See also this SeaChem fact sheet:
Flourish Iron

Carl

[polaris96]

ahhhhhh. yep. that's it.

I've got GH++ right now due to an idiot misread of the dosage on the Seachem Equllibrium bottle (it's embarrasssing for an Engineer to admit he f'ed up the chemistry ... ) I dosed a 10gal tank with two tablespoons of Equillibrium. it was a serious error abd whacked my Nerites in a day. I feel really bad about that.

tank, this morning was:
NH[34] 0.25ppm
NO3 0
NO4 10ppm
pH 7
KH 71.6
GH off the scale. My table ends at 214.8ppm for 12 drop titration. I need about 40 drops to kick on the test (API). (one of these days I'll graph the data and extrapolate the curve if the relationship is clear, but, for now, I'm just logging GH as 214.8++)

I've added a water softener pillow, which has caused the GH number to stop climbing, at least. I'm thinking it's gonna be a long haul of gradual dissolution until water changes carry out the overage. At least my local water is good for this (New York, Long Island) I've got high pH and Carbonate but zero magnesium or trace salts (no bedrock, here).

I don't see any way of dealing with this, save to let it run it's course. At least nothing seems to be adversely affected (so far).

by the way, any idea why I get no measurable levels of Fe even directly after adding Seachem Flourish Iron? I have tested with both RedSea and Hagen kits after assuming, incorrectly, that the reagent may have been off.

[Carl]

Sorry I asked what Iron supplement you used when you posted in the question title (I was near the end of a very busy 14 hour day when I answered)

Did you mean PO4 rather than NO4 (I cannot think of any compound that NO4 stand for)?

I do not have an answer for testing of your Iron, as I have only added it via dosing, often via root tabs since this is a trace element..

I would not be too concerned about your GH as 200-300 is not even close to a dangerous level, as well GH is also necessary to prevent ph spikes during peak hours of photosynthesis and this cloudy water issue is only a temporary nuisance.
You could also try mixing the iron supplement in a gallon of your tank water than setting it aside for a couple of days to settle prior to adding to your aquarium.

See these articles for further information:
Aquarium Chemistry; pH, GH, KH, more

Planted Freshwater Aquarium Care

Carl

[polaris96]

NO4 would be a pernitrate, and I'm not even sure if nitrogen will form one in the regular environment. It's goobledygook - I messed up. sorry for the confusion.

I should have written NO2 instead of NO3 and NO3 instead of NO4.

I have already read the articles you included, but thanks anyway for the links. It's obvious you put a good deal of analytical rigor into them and I've referred a bunch of my peers who have aquaria to them.

So refreshing not to hear another rant on, " Duuuuuuuuuuuuude my African Cichlids don't bother any other fish as long as I keep feeding them tetramin boiled for exactly 23 mintues in whale fat. They just SAY that crap about agression to get you to buy another tank, maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan."

[Carl]

NO4 would be a pernitrate, and I'm not even sure if nitrogen will form one in the regular environment

OK, I forgot all about this.
My understanding of NO4 pernitrate cannot exist because O (Oxygen) is always -2 in a compound

How did you test for pernitrate?

I have to admit I have never thought of or had a question about pernitrate, so my knowledge of this is very basic.

Carl

[polaris96]

Apr 20, 2010 10:48:59 GMT -5 polaris96 said:

It's goobledygook - I messed up. sorry for the confusion.

I should have written NO2 instead of NO3 and NO3 instead of NO4.

"

Now, I've wasted your time. Apologies.

I meant to say I screwed up the empirical formulae for Nitrates and Nitrites by adding an extra Oxygen radical to each. I didn't test for pernitrates, I just messed up the formula when I wrote the post.

The compund could, theoretically, exist, because Oxygen and Nitrogen are both anions ( "-" charged). It would require a cation group to balance the sum of the negative charges. Thats why nitrates and nitrites always exist as "something" nitrate (eg. Potassium Nitrate or Ammonium Nitrate). I know you know this already, I'm just throwing it in for the benefit of any interested hobbyists that might skim the post.

I don't think there are many naturally occurring cation groups that fit pernitrate charge criteria, but this is only a hunch. A Horticultural or Agricultural chemist would be our "go to" guy here for hard facts. I think you would already know about pernitrates if they were important.

By the way, has anybody experimented with Ozone to energize the redox potential in aquaria? It has seen some usage in atmospheric recycling.

[Carl]

I know you know this already, I'm just throwing it in for the benefit of any interested hobbyists that might skim the post.

I can always use a refresher, as well I am always learning something new, so please do not be afraid to educate me (even if I may already know a little about a subject)

By the way, has anybody experimented with Ozone to energize the redox potential in aquaria? It has seen some usage in atmospheric recycling.

Ozone has been used in the past in the Aquarium Hobby to increase the Redox.
However the other side of the equation has often been overlooked in the hobby

Carl

[babygeige]

I don't really have anything to add as to the science/chemistry aspect of this conversation, but I'm just curious what plants you have in your tank.

Generally from what I've read, most of the basic maintenance plants don't really require the addition of iron, they'll get enough of what they need from the trace amounts in water. Unless you're growing plants with red leaves and high light requirements, you may not even need to add this.

I haven't used any iron additives in my tanks yet. I've only just begun to consider it for my Narrow Leaf Ludwigia, only as an experiment to see if it would make a difference in its color.

[polaris96]

Right now, I've got some corkscrew Val, green Cabomba, Wisteria, Pogo. Stelatus, Anubias, a great "free" Java moss cluster that came as food with my Cherry Shrimp, and two creeping red ludwigia. I started adding iron because I show no iron content in the water when I test for it.

I've been trying to achieve Carl's recommended water parameters for planted tanks. It's weird because, no matter how much Fe I add, I show 0ppm when I test. At first I figured the reagent was dead (happens every now and then), so I tried another test kit with the same results.

I'm now dosing the tank with 1mL/week flourish iron and still showing 0ppm on both Hagen and Red Sea Fe tests. This is slightly disturbing to me, and I'd really like to understand why it's happening.

The important thing, though, is that the tank's healthy, the plants are growing well, and the red ludwigia is RED Thanks for giving the post a look. Any ideas?

[babygeige]

Yeah, it looks like you need the Iron in there, if only for the pogo and red ludwigia. I think I am going to try some for my ludwigia too. The leaves on mine have a slightly reddish tint to them, but I'm very curious to see how much the addition of iron would help.

I can't think of why iron doesn't show up on your testing though. I wonder if the bottle of additive is ok. Do they expire? Or perhaps you got a bad bottle...

Do you have any pictures of your tank? I'd love to see it!

[bikeguy33]

the iron tests DO expire....but that only makes it less sensitive....it should register something. the odds of 2 kits being off tho are astronomical. now i`m not a chemist....but could there be some other element in the new york water that is neutralizing the iron??? kinda like the ammo out that changes ammonia???

[Suzie Q (Lori)]

Very interesting thread here...Carl can we please make it a sticky?

[Carl]

Apr 27, 2010 8:39:20 GMT -5 Suzie Q (Lori) said:

Very interesting thread here...Carl can we please make it a sticky?

I was thinking maybe a home page blog post (as with fishfever's interesting UPS thread), as too many stickies can get lost IMHO.

Do you like this idea?

Carl

[Suzie Q (Lori)]

Apr 27, 2010 9:54:41 GMT -5 Carl said:

Apr 27, 2010 8:39:20 GMT -5 Suzie Q (Lori) said:

Very interesting thread here...Carl can we please make it a sticky?

I was thinking maybe a home page blog post (as with fishfever's interesting UPS thread), as too many stickies can get lost IMHO.

Do you like this idea?

Carl

Home Page Blog does sound much better...I was thinking the same thing after I posted...we have so many Sticky's already...

Lori

[polaris96]

Just an update and tyvm for everybody's interest and input.

the idea that the iron additive is bad seems very worth following up. I need a bit of time to think about this one but it isn't very likely - a bad lot, maybe, but I can't think of an environmental factor that would deactivate the additive inside a bottle.

The fertilizer isn't a very unstable mixture when It's bottled. Even a bad seal shouldn't cause a reaction (this is for Iron. a bad seal WILL allow some types of "all in one" fertilizer to go off) - you'd need either a reagent of some kind, or else a much better oxidizer than plain air.

It IS possible that, for some reason, CHELATED Fe reacts as soon as it enters the water. Maybe some of the clouding that I notice comes from Iron salts. I doubt this is a Locale specific problem - my local aquarium stores have never heard of the problem.

I'm going to grab a sample form the planted tank at my local fish shop and tests it as a control. That should be a step in the right direction.


Ps- Carl was on the money with his diagnosis of mineral precipitation. I recently installed a homebuilt sand filter and have been able to polish the cloudiness pretty nicely. Thanks again and I'll let everyone know when (if?) I get this iron thing figured out.

[polaris96]

ps @ babygeige. I DO have some pictures and I will post them as soon as I can figure out how to get them off my camera. I run an unstable variant of the LINUX OS, and sometimes seemingly normal tasks can be an adventure.

[Carl]

May 1, 2010 10:04:35 GMT -5 polaris96 said:

Ps- Carl was on the money with his diagnosis of mineral precipitation. I recently installed a homebuilt sand filter and have been able to polish the cloudiness pretty nicely. Thanks again and I'll let everyone know when (if?) I get this iron thing figured out.

Thanks for the compliment

Please share as much you learn here, I think this thread has much to teach others as per Suzie-Q's comments.
This includes myself, as anything you can teach me and others such as per-nitrate (which I maybe have a cumulative total of 20 minutes education about in my lifetime), as well as how the use of Iron supplements interact in aquariums

I have also found this comment to be true (albeit in observations, not controlled tests):

Generally from what I've read, most of the basic maintenance plants don't really require the addition of iron, they'll get enough of what they need from the trace amounts in water. Unless you're growing plants with red leaves and high light requirements, you may not even need to add this.

I plan to make this thread a blog post as per earlier suggestions, this way it will get more widespread Internet attention as well (in time)

Carl

[polaris96]

to be honest, the only reason I started using iron was that I keep getting 0ppm indicated on Fe tests. At this point, I'm half tempted to say "forget it, I'll stick with flourish and ditch the iron unless my red plants turn green..."

I just had something odd happen to my pogo stellatus, today - the tops separated from the stems - everything looks green and there's plenty of young leaves, etc., but the stems thinned and parted and I had to replant the (much shorter now) tops in the substrate. I hope they take. I really like the Pogos (and, of course, it sucks when anything dies)

Wondering now if the murky water could've been starving it for light...

[Carl]

I agree with your point , I generally do not supplement Iron unless I see symptoms of iron deficiency or have plants such as Red Ludwigia.

I am not familiar with the pogo stellatus, is it related to the Pogostemon helferi?

I am sure that some light is blocked by murky water, but how much I do not know and how much it affects individual plant species I also do not know. From what I know of the Pogostemon helferi this type of growth is normal and as well these plants do not need copious amounts of light (they do look better under medium to high lighting).
Of coarse this is assuming the plant I am familiar with is even related to your Pogo stellatus.

Carl