Penycat
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Angels, Guppies & Bettas
Posts: 104
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Post by Penycat on Sept 26, 2009 17:09:54 GMT -5
I've had this 300g Rubbermaid horse trough since the beginning of summer...actually it was May that I got it and set it up. It's already had a long story (some of which is in the endangered cichlid thread) but once all my fish are moved and where I want them to be, I'm probably going to be needing help to figure out how to set this up properly. Renee, I figure this one's got you:) Right now there's a huge mix of fish in it and very little filteration. It's turned into a bio-system or whatever you'd call that and everyone is doing better than I thought.
The inhabitants are... ~Parachromis sp La Ceiba "Yellow Head" male with tons of fry (the story is in that other thread) ~a school of about 5 Aussie Rainbows ~2 huge (6-8 inches) parrot fish that I rescued off Craig's list (the lady had 15 of these in a 55g with other fish!) one black one orange ~2 dragon gobies ~one retired male jewel cichlid ~one female molly ~one clown knife
The filteration is tons of pond plants and a sponge filter.
Now I know it's not anything near the filtration that I need to have on this thing, but I never intended to keep them outside all summer, but boy am I glad I did! The rainbows spawned so much during the summer that I was giving juvies away left and right (they are pet store fish, so I don't know if they are hybrids or not) and the para babies are getting big. Everyone, even the dragons are getting huge and happy. Anyway, my goal with almost all these oddballs is to sell them at our local club's auction this weekend (Oct 3rd). the parrots, knife and rainbows will be sold from that tank. The para has a 110 trough waiting for him till either I sell him or find a suitable sized female to keep with him. The baby paras will be put in a grow out tank.
Now, my mom and I were talking today and she was at a friend's house that has a beautiful though small koi pond and she's hooked. I must admit that I've always loved koi, so rather than bring in the 300g, I'll leave it were it is and start with a few koi. Renee, this is where you come in. To winter a pond in NC with koi, is a big tank heater (just enough to keep it from icing over) enough? Or should I put something bigger in there. I know they are cold water fish, but I wasn't sure how cold is too cold for them. I've had goldfish before, but never koi. I know the sponge filter isn't near enough, so what is your suggestion? Yes I'm going to read the articles as well so I'll get a better idea of what to look for. I'm just excited about this as I've seen some gorgeous koi and know a breeder in my area. Eventually we will be digging a real pond for them, just not yet. but if I get them small now, hopefully the pond will be ready by the time they outgrow a 300g.
Okay, critique away, just remember, I'm blond and still learning:)
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Post by murdock6701 on Sept 26, 2009 18:20:26 GMT -5
for Koi, I'm pretty sure all you need is something to keep the tank from icing over - no clue on filtration maybe a couple of pro 5 sponges - carl would be the one to answer that one
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Post by goldenpuon on Sept 26, 2009 20:53:37 GMT -5
Hi Penycat. I can't say what to do with the tropical fish and cichlids that are in your pond other than to bring them inside for the winter if it is cold where you live. As for the koi pond, you probably need a heater made for a pond. I don't know what the wattage is on the heater you mentioned or how big the pond you are getting is. But my educated guess is that a large aquarium heater won't be enough because a large aquarium can be 150 gallons and a pond well over 500. The heater will help to keep too much ice from forming. If a complete sheet of ice forms on the surface of the pond, you will likely have some issues. Although I'm not positive (it has been a long time since I've read about this), if a pond gets iced over, there can be little to no gas exchange through the ice and the fish can run out of oxygen. (Again, I am not totally sure on the oxygen part of this. It has a couple years since I read up on ponds. What I do know for sure is that you don't want too much ice on your pond. The reason why do don't want that is where my memory is fuzzy.) I have heard of ponds without filter but in my experience, the people who do this have ENORMOUS ponds. I girl I talked to about 6 years ago didn't have a filter for her pond but it was the size and depth of a room. I would definitely recommend that you get some kind of pond filter. I think it would also be fine to leave the sponge filter in there since it is a great place for beneficial bacteria. Also, how many gallons is the pond you will have the koi in? Is it that 300 gallon horse trough or a different pond? Something to keep in mind is koi can grow to 2-3 feet long if they grow to maximum size so you'll definitely not want to overstock. I am not sure how many gallons per one koi you should have but it is definitely more than 10-20 gallons per fish which is what is recommended per goldfish. Also, koi can live a 100+ years. They in no way have a life expectancy of a goldfish (their close relatives) which is roughly 20 years with good care. Another thing is how deep is your pond? I have read in many articles that the pond should be at least 18 inches deep to avoid ice getting too thick over the pond in winter. But I think it is a an estimate because if you live in a colder climate or need a deeper pond for other reasons. You can also choose to keep the koi indoors for the winter but you will need a very large tank if the koi are big. I have heard stories of people losing a large number of fish in their ponds due to predators like herons, hawks, cats, raccoons, etc. eating fish. This is not all that uncommon as far as I know. There are items you can use to protect your pond fish from this at pond/garden and pet stores. Last, you can't feed goldfish (and I believe koi as well) when the temperature of their water dips below 55 F. In winter, you literally stop feeding the fish. For some reason (probably metabolism related) goldfish/koi can't digest food below 55 F. Doing so when the temperature is that low can hurt them. For this reason, a lot of people feed their fish more rich foods before winter. However I'd watch it on food with a lot of protein since goldfish (and also koi I believe) are mainly vegetarian and have problems when too much protein is added to their diet. I hope that helps. Please keep in mind that some of these were educated guesses and that the articles I read that I got some of this information from may have not had accurate information. I have also never had/kept a pond so I am basing this on other peoples' experiences. Carl should be able to point out if any of the info I provided is wrong. Feel free to read these Carl's article on Pond Information for more information on keeping ponds. It should clear up many of the things I pointed out that I was not totally sure on. Renee
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Post by Carl on Sept 27, 2009 17:46:38 GMT -5
This project has gone well for you Penycat, so outside of heat and a more filtration I do not have much to critique, rather congratulations on your success are more in order. I would suggest one or two more Hydro Sponge 5 PRO style Sponges filters or a Hydro Pond #2 (air powered) or Hydro Pond #4 (power head powered) to improve filtration. Heat is the more difficult question to answer; I recommend 25 watts for every 10 degrees of ambient temperature per 10 gallons you need to raise your pond temperature. Example: If your outside temperature 68 degrees and you have a 300 gallon pond, to reach a temperature of 78 degrees you would need approximately a 700 watt heater. See; Aquarium/pond Answers; HeatersCovering the pond and adding insulation around it will help greatly during the coldest months. I am thinking you are going to need at least (3) 300 watt heatersCarl
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Penycat
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Angels, Guppies & Bettas
Posts: 104
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Post by Penycat on Sept 28, 2009 4:59:32 GMT -5
Thank you Carl and Renee!!! That's exactly what I need to know. I was also wondering, if it's going to be koi now that are in the 300g, I'm thinking 3 at the most, but little ones to begin with (hopefully the koi breeder I know will be going to our fish auction...lol good prices then) would a canister filter work as well? They aren't cheap, but I'm looking to get my hands on a few for the fish room and thought that might work for the 300g as well, just wasn't sure about that or it being outside.
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Post by Carl on Sept 28, 2009 10:38:10 GMT -5
I would get a pressurized pond filter instead of a canister filter as these are not only less expensive, they are better adapted to the often higher bio load created in outdoor ponds (due to debris falling into the pond). These pressurized filters are simply run by a water pump in the pond and have the advantage over canister filters of not requiring priming or siphons. In fact I have often used pressurized pond filters in place of canister filters for aquarium use as I find them to have many positive attributes (including ease of start up after cleaning) to make them a better choice. See this article for more about there use as a replacement for canister filters: Aquarium Filtration; Canister & Pressurized FiltersFor Pressurized Filter use in ponds: Pond Care; Pressurized FiltersFor the pressurized Filter I use: Clear Stream Pressurized FilterCarl
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Penycat
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Angels, Guppies & Bettas
Posts: 104
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Post by Penycat on Sept 28, 2009 15:39:49 GMT -5
oh that's awesome! thank you thank you, that's exactly what I'll do:) Thanks Carl!
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Post by murdock6701 on Sept 28, 2009 19:05:37 GMT -5
Sarah, I'm a bit confused......are you keeping the koi pond outside or in the garage? are they going into the 100 gallon or 300 gallon? makes a big difference in heating - I know people uo here who keep koi year round and just keep the pond from freezing over at the top, much like a regular horse water trough heater - trouble is, they draw a lot of amps......
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Post by fishfever on Sept 28, 2009 19:48:39 GMT -5
Another thought is garages generally get really hot in the summer unless you've converted yours to living space with air conditioning... and cooling a tank is much more expensive and complicated than heating.
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Penycat
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Angels, Guppies & Bettas
Posts: 104
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Post by Penycat on Sept 30, 2009 7:37:23 GMT -5
K sorry, I get too rambling and forget the specifics:) *blush* K the 300g (which is now empty of fish) will be staying outside and the koi will go in there. The 110 trough is set up in the garage. The garage is currently being finished and will be totally insulated. There's a space heater for the winter (and heaters in the tanks where the fish need a bit warmer, like my angel babies) and there's an air wall unit for air conditioning in the summer. My husband's office/man cave is above, so there's insulation from the top side as well. The garage door will be shut permanently and we'll be putting a wall of 2inch or so thick foam board in front of that. Eventually (though I doubt this year) we want to take out the garage door and put a wall with french doors in. The left side of the garage is against the hay shed/barn so that get's insulated as well as it's always full of hay on that side. We still have work to do on it, but so far everyone's happy. Luckily in NC we don't get too many nights of below freezing, it's the summer that I worry more about, but like I said, air unit already installed:)
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Post by Carl on Sept 30, 2009 10:10:44 GMT -5
Thanks for the clarification I think the 110 is in a perfect location with all you described about this room. As for the 300 gallon, since this will be for Koi, you would only need minimal heat to prevent ice buildup, so you likely will not need the number of heaters I suggested earlier. Our climate in Oregon does not get much below 20 F (-7 C), we rarely have hard freeze overs and the ponds here rarely need much heat, if any for ponds over 24 inches deep containing ponds. Carl
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Penycat
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Angels, Guppies & Bettas
Posts: 104
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Post by Penycat on Sept 30, 2009 13:44:13 GMT -5
thank you! that's the way it is here too luckily. Though the last few nights have been down in the upper 40s which is so weird and my fish aren't happy...lol They all have heaters right now, but I can't close the garage door until my husband gets his tractor/lawn mower out of there. I'm going to get him a tarp to keep it under till we can get another shed built...lol MY FISHROOM!!! * Thank you again! I'm also going to be getting on John's suggestion (thank you!) some 2 inch foam board to put under the tubs just to insulate them a bit more from the cement floor. All the other tanks are on a base of 2x4s as part of the rack I've built, so they are up off the ground. I'm thinking/hoping that the 2inch thick will be good enough for keeping them warmer.
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Post by murdock6701 on Sept 30, 2009 14:09:26 GMT -5
I wouls still stuff the cavity of your wooden stands w/ batt insulation (R-13 if 2x4, R-19 if 2x6)) - set the whole thing on tar paper (15# felt, black stuff) to prevent moisture and rot and mold - 4" of foam would be better for the 110 or just build a wood base for it and treat it the same way as th other fish stands......might be cheaper
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Penycat
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Angels, Guppies & Bettas
Posts: 104
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Post by Penycat on Sept 30, 2009 14:21:50 GMT -5
that's a good idea too. My stands are as basic as you can get. at first I was going to build this elaborate stand/rack and hire a guy to do it for me, till I went to a fish room from a local guy. He uses 2x4s or 4x4s depending on the tank and cinder blocks...I'll get some pics of that too
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Penycat
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Angels, Guppies & Bettas
Posts: 104
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Post by Penycat on Oct 18, 2009 12:18:40 GMT -5
Alrighty then! I've got to tell you, as I'm working on my garage, even though there's still messes as to boxes I need to go through, this has become my favorite room in the house...well detached room:) I've got a full complete rack set up now with 13 tanks of different sizes and 2 horse trough/tubs. I used John's idea and put the troughs on basically 2inches of foam with 3/4 inch plywood as a base to insulate from the cold cement floor...my fish are much happier. I've got a space heater in there now with a box fan on low to blow the warm air throughout the garage and it's so nice in there now! I've got almost all my fish out of the house now, but I'm stuck as the next row of tanks I want to set up, I can't till I get more outlets added to the garage...I've got an electrician guy coming out on Wed to check it out. But after finally getting all the fish where I want them, tanks fully set up, I sat down last night in my chair, turned off the over head garage lights and just had the tank lights and a funky cool strand of lights I got at IKea the other day. It was so peaceful and quiet and amazing. That's when I took the vid shots that are posted in other places on this forum. I'll get pics of the actual set up soon as more of the surrounding mess is cleared up * all in all, I'm loving this room!!!
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Post by murdock6701 on Oct 18, 2009 19:15:54 GMT -5
good for you Sarah! now all you need are some tall plants around your ponds and you'll have a jungle!
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Penycat
Full Member
Angels, Guppies & Bettas
Posts: 104
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Post by Penycat on Oct 18, 2009 20:27:04 GMT -5
Oooo, you know, I've always had a weakness for the umbrella palms.... * I may just have to do that:)
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Post by Carl on Oct 19, 2009 16:12:23 GMT -5
Seeing pictures of each step in the process would be interesting and good learning for us here as we alll follow this project (if possible that is) Too bad John did not live closer, I bet he could really help with all your construction. Carl
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Post by murdock6701 on Oct 19, 2009 19:10:06 GMT -5
I do need a job.....
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Post by kagome on Oct 20, 2009 0:16:46 GMT -5
Would keeping the surface of the pond moving help to keep it from icing over? Is the issue with the pond icing over actually about temperature or the fact that there is no gas exchange? Just curious, I've never had a pond.
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