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Post by fishfever on Sept 1, 2009 19:22:47 GMT -5
I'm a little late starting this thread but have been pretty busy with everything including trying to keep up with my tanks. Without going into all the gory details, I ended up with two of my tetras getting kind of a whitish "mustache" on top of their mouths that I've been battling for a while now (the one I recently got from the LFS covers a much larger area so I suspect it's the source). This whitish growth has been extremely resistant to everything I've hit it with although I'm finally making slow progress recently using twice daily medicated salt/PP and salt/MB baths. Prior to this I hit it with Pimafix, Paraguard, Triple Sulfa, and finally Kanamycin/Furan 2 (not all at the same time!). I only did one dose of the antibiotics in the tank so perhaps I should have repeated it. It may have started getting better during the treatments but it was hard to say from outward appearance. Thinking back, I probably should have done the stronger meds in another tank but they were all in use except some tiny isolation tank I had. Well in any case, one or more of those meds did a number on the beneficial bacteria in my tank and there does not appear to be any ammonia->nitrite conversion any more. Even changing the water 2-3 times a week (about 20%) doesn't really help much since our tap water has fairly high chloramines so I measure ammonia in straight tap water. Thank goodness for Prime so even though the total ammonia is off the charts most of it is in the non-toxic form. But I still try to reduce the total ammonia with frequent water changes and I also gradually reduced the pH to slightly acidic to help with toxicity (by simply adding less buffer with each water change). I did move a seasoned sponge filter from another cycled tank, scrunched up against the cartridge in this tank but I think I may have put it in too early and the bacteria may have perished; the tank was still yellowish from the Furan 2 for over a week after dosing even with new carbon and 2-3 20% water changes. Now that the tank is completely clear looking I could move some gravel but the other tanks use a much smaller darker gravel that I don't really want in this tank. So, while I was at Petsmart the other day to shop for some frozen food, I noticed this "new and improved" product Nutrafin Cycle. It claims to instantly cycle your tank. Now I'm quite skeptical about such claims; the only one I've heard that actually works was refrigerated BioSpira and that's very hard to get. However, if this were to work, it would solve my current problem. So I bought a bottle to try. Apparently the bacteria exists in a non-active form until ready to use so that it is able to survive at normal room temperature without a food source. That's the theory anyway. By the way here is a link to the newly formulated Cycle product: www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/pfk/pages/item.php?news=1730Tonight I checked the total ammonia (off the charts), nitrites (0) and nitrates (0). Then I poured Cycle on my small sponge filter, the scrunched up sponge filter from the other tank, my HOB filter cartridge, my prefilter sponge for the HOB filter and even a little on the lava rock bags (to convert nitrite->nitrate). I let it soak in for a minute before returning the items to the tank. I used about 25% more than the bottle directed so if it doesn't work it wasn't that I didn't use enough. Now it's just a waiting game... I'll be thrilled even if doesn't cycle overnight, just reducing the cycle time drastically will be enough for me! I'll report back regardless of the results, bad or good.
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Post by Carl on Sept 1, 2009 20:43:15 GMT -5
Although I have not used nor do I know of any persons in the industry that have used the New Cycle, I am skeptical based on Hagen's history and more importantly the fact that you cannot store true autotrophic bacteria in a sealed bottle for much time at room temperature. Even Bio Spira has its issues from what I have seen as mishandling of this product seems to be an issue for this. Honestly the only product I think that works half way well (& I still do not agree with all its claims either) is Stability by SeaChem which is a company that tends to do much better in research and development. That said it is still primarily Heterotrophic Bacteria, but its blend does not seem to stall out development of true Autotrophic nitrifying bacteria as many products do. I have further information in this article about this subject: Aquarium Nirogen cycle; Cycling productsBack to the Tetra problems, can you provide a picture? My thoughts are since you have hit these guys with the primary gram negative antibiotics, I would consider a strong gram positive antibiotic such as Erythromycin along with your baths/dips. Carl
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Post by fishfever on Sept 2, 2009 21:07:49 GMT -5
Well after reading the Cycle bottle some more, it seems they want you to add more periodically or whenever you add a fish so it sure doesn't sound like the kind of bacteria that I had before that does not need replenishing. And even their promotion does not mention the autotrophic bacteria Carl (two other types were mentioned). Tonight I checked the ammonia and it is still sky high but possibly a bit lower (but at least 8ppm); it's really hard to tell when it's already darker than the darkest color reading. But I am seeing some nitrites finally (0.125ppm) and nitrates (20ppm) so there is some conversion going on. I would feel somewhat better if I can at least get the total ammonia down some so I can reduce the frequency of the water changes although I will continue to use Prime until I am truly cycled with ammonia/nitrite=0. Ok here are some pics of the tetras. I believe this is mouth fungus and I believe the Triple Sulfa was supposed to be effective against this (it may have helped some but it was pretty hard to tell with the single treatment I did following the package directions). I do have a new box of Erythromycin so if you think that might help I will try it in another tank and/or as an extra additive in the salt/MB bath. Here are a few pics (not especially clear since these are active fish and the shot is through a bowfront and the acrylic bath container): This is both tetras with the bluish areas being the MB "stain" on affected areas that don't have the slime coat (but generally don't have the whitish growth). This the female tetra (worse case) before the MB bath. This is the male tetra from the side view. It's kind of hard to tell there is a problem from this view other than a very slight protrusion around the mouth. This is the male with the bluish MB stain surrounding the whitish growth. I am hoping the stained area is the area that is healing that will eventually get the slime coat back.
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Post by fishfever on Sept 2, 2009 21:10:04 GMT -5
Ack, I cut off the paste on the last two images: This is the male tetra from the side view. It's kind of hard to tell there is a problem from this view other than a very slight protrusion around the mouth. This is the male with the bluish MB stain surrounding the whitish growth. I am hoping the stained area is the area that is healing that will eventually get the slime coat back.
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Post by Carl on Sept 2, 2009 23:13:23 GMT -5
One thought as I look at these pictures, plus follow your treatment regimen and that is although Triple Sulfa generally is effective for mouth fungus, it depends upon the cause/pathogen, and since we as aquarists generally do not have the tools to grow out bacterial cultures and then correctly identify said pathogen (this includes the costs involved, as I once owned a really nice bacterial culture and identification "kit" and scrapped using it due to the fact I good not justify the costs of use including time for the only slightly improved disease identification results). My point is often we have to make educated guesses, and then if these guesses fail, it is best to use opposite antibiotics or look at what worked even slightly; further since you had poor results with what you used we have to conclude that either the pathogen in question is resistant to the used antibiotics OR this may be a or more rare (at least in aquariums, not in humans) gram positive antibiotic. I am leaning towards the later from looking at your fish and from the fact that the Methylene Blue seems to work somewhat. Methylene Blue is actually more effective against gram positive bacteria than negative (which is why it is destructive on your nitrifying bacteria). Although I cannot guarantee results, I think using Erythromycin (which is gram positive) may work. I attempt to point out some of these thoughts here: Aquarium Medications; Change Medications when ineffectiveOne other thought though, and that is that if you are battling high ammonia this may make almost all antibiotics useless do to the weakening of fish immunity and damage to the fish' respiration. I would continue to use the Prime, adding Wonder Shells & Salt will improve osmoregulation thereby hopefully helping the fish to fight off infection. Finally I would like to clarify that Autotrophic Bacteria is type which derive energy from oxidizing inorganic compounds vs. a Heterotrophs cannot fully synthesize these compounds and are dependent on complex organic substances to fully carry out this function. From Aquarium Nitrogen Cycle, these are the primary Autotrophic Bacteria responsible for nitrification (not de-nitrification): "Five genera are generally accepted as ammonia-oxidizers and four genera as nitrite-oxidizers. Of these, Nitrosomonas (FW), Nitrosococcus (SW), and Nitrospira (ammonia-oxidizers); Nitrococcus (SW), Nitrobacter (FW), and Nitrospina (nitrite-oxidizers) are the most important."I hope my thoughts are constructive here, as I think you have done an awesome job in caring for your fish and often expanding on my suggestions and “taking them up a notch” Carl
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Post by babygeige on Sept 3, 2009 21:10:43 GMT -5
I've had something like this on my head and tail lights before. I had pretty good luck with Melafix, which is a gram positive medication, according to Carl's article. So hopefully you're on the right track with the Erythromycin.
Good luck!
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Post by fishfever on Sept 3, 2009 22:05:52 GMT -5
Thanks all, I've started the Erythromycin treatment today for both of them in a separate 10g tank that I've previously prepped for possible breeding or hatching brine shrimp in. Interestingly the pair seem to be bonding pretty well now that they are away from all the other fish and distractions so that will be a nice bonus if they can recover from this. I still plan to continue the twice a day baths for the pair. I've been wondering if I should add additional Erythromycin to the bath (there is already some since I start with tank water already being treated with Erythromycin)? And since I've been doing half PP/salt baths and half MB/salt baths would additional Erythromycin be kosher with either? The reason I've been doing the morning and evening baths different is that I'm not sure which is more helpful so I figured they are getting at least partial exposure to whichever one is helping more.
In the mean time the ammonia level in the 26g is still quite high. I'm thinking of getting a large batch of water from another closeby municipality that doesn't add chloramines to their water supply. When I do water changes with our tap water it does reduce total ammonia but then I'm adding some of it back due to the chloramines... was never a problem with the tank cycled but now that it's uncycled it's a pain. Another idea I had was to take a clean sheer panty hose/stocking and take a bunch of gravel from a cycled tank and lay it in the bottom. This way I won't mix the two types of gravel but can get some beneficial bacteria introduced again. I haven't finished analyzing the Nutrafin Cycle but from Carl's comments, reading the Cycle label and more research I'm pretty convinced this will not be a long-term solution even if it does help temporarily.
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Post by Carl on Sept 4, 2009 9:43:30 GMT -5
You are definitely in a tough spot with your city water. You can use RO (Reverse Osmosis) water and reconstitute it with Marine Buffer & Wonder Shells (or similar products). Using the Prime certainly helps, but it (& similar products such as Amquel Plus) will still leave a non toxic form of ammonia behind for the nitrifying bacteria to take care of (remove). My earlier comments aside as to the new Cycle; this is where this product and other such as Stability can still be useful as they still aid in the digestion of wastes (which is how they can be quite useful, I often used these products after a client dumped in large quantities of fish food or after the discovery of dead/decaying matter). Back to your baths; I do not recommend mixing Potassium Permanganate with any medications or other chemicals (other than salt) since it is an oxidizer. The use of Erythromycin in a bath is a good idea, but it should be used with salt and/or Methylene Blue. Carl
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Post by fishfever on Sept 4, 2009 18:44:09 GMT -5
Yes I think I generally measure about 2ppm or more ammonia from straight tap water. Because my levels are so high (I did a 50% water change today and it's still at close to 8ppm) I am going to have to get some water from somewhere else. I do have a currently vacant property in an adjacent county and I knew I would be going there today so I brought along a water test kit. Everything is similar (very soft and acidic) but there is one key difference: no chloramines! I had a spare 32g plastic garbage bin that I washed out so I tried to bring back about 15g of that water with me but it overturned a few miles from home... :-( So I'm taking a bunch of low C.G. containers like ice chests and plastic storage boxes tonight to bring a bunch of that water back with me which should allow me to drastically reduce the ammonia levels.
With my levels so high, I have been concerned Prime would not be able to neutralize all the ammonia. According to the bottle labeling, it can neutralize 0.8 mg/L where mg/L can be replaced by ppm. So just to neutralize the 2ppm tap water, I'd have to use 2.5X the standard Prime dosage (the bottle says it's safe to use 2X and 5X can be used in an emergency). But then I've still got ammonia being created (I've cut feeding in half to help) so I'd have to use more. This is why I'm going to have to start with chloramine-free water for water changes until I get the tank recycled again. I am continuing to ramp the pH down by completely omitting buffer to keep the toxicity as low as possible until I can get control of the ammonia again... this has been a royal pain. I have a feeling that doing back-to-back treatments without giving the bacteria a break has a lot to do with them being completely wiped out. But next time I will do all strong treatments in a separate tank to remove this risk!
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Post by fishfever on Sept 4, 2009 22:03:35 GMT -5
I made my water run to the other property with 10 low C.G. plastic containers (mostly coolers but some large plastic storage containers also) in the back of my pickup truck. It turned out one has holes manufactured into the bottom so I ended up filling 9 of them about 80% full which is probably at least 50-60 gallons of chloramine-free water! I'm hoping my neighbors at the other property don't think I'm preparing for a major drought or something. Anyway I did a 50% water change and as expected the total ammonia dropped from 8ppm to 4ppm. I'll probably do another large change tomorrow maybe as high as 75% to try to get it well under 2ppm. Then I can use 2x doses of Prime to neutralize the rest until I can get the cycle going again. I also just added a big sheer stocking full of fresh zeolite and a recharged purigen bag in the HOB filter to try to keep the ammonia down. It's really alot of work to keep it under control when your bacteria is gone; they were hard little workers that I took for granted!
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Post by Carl on Sept 5, 2009 10:37:55 GMT -5
The use of the Purigen & Zeolite is a good idea, I is a good thing for your fish that you are on top of everything What I am unclear of (or missed) is why does your property have chloramines in the water and your neighbor's does not? Carl
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Post by fishfever on Sept 5, 2009 13:47:37 GMT -5
I did a 90%+ (yes 90%+) water change using the water without chloramines this morning. Needed to do this before the sun warmed up the water too much (the water is in covered containers on the back of my pickup truck) so I could match the temperature of the little remaining water in the tank. Now I'm down to 0.25ppm total ammonia, and my free ammonia (as indicated by the Seachem alert) is now <0.02ppm (bright yellow which I haven't seen in quite a while!) because the Prime is fully neutralizing the toxic part. I added another recharged stocking of zeolite (been soaking in brine solution for a few days) so with all this and reduced feeding I'm hoping I'll be able to maintain the lower ammonia levels until the tank recycles. I also took another stocking and put as much gravel as I could stuff into it from my oldest cycled tank which always has great water parameters and laid it out as flat and wide as possible on the bottom of the tank. Now I cross my fingers and wait...
Carl, the chloramine-free water is from a property I own in an adjacent county and a different water company and probably water source too. Or it could be the same water source and they just elect not to add the chloramines, not sure. As I was replacing the water I could see the ammonia levels drop drastically so I added some Malawi buffer to get the pH closer to balanced (was forcing it more acidic to try to reduce the ammonia toxicity previously). Don't like to play games with the pH or make drastic water changes but in this case it was that or sure ammonia poisioning.
The two tetras with mouth fungus seem to be doing well in the 10g tank being treated with Erythromycin (I also added Melafix). I have switched the twice daily baths to MB/salt with a bit of extra Erythromycin in the bath to avoid having PP mixed with Erythromycin. I am also swabbing the affected areas around the mouth with MB prior to the bath using a clean Q-tip.
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Post by fishfever on Sept 8, 2009 18:46:14 GMT -5
So far the water is holding between 0.25 and 0.50ppm total ammonia but free ammonia is still <0.02 thanks to Prime. I have used the last of my Cycle. I can't say it helped much and probably won't buy it again. The major water change using chloramine-free water really made a big difference so now the ammonia is in a manageable range. I also took a filter cartridge from another cycled tank (which was due to be replaced anyway) and have it sandwiched against the cartridge in this tank together with a large stocking of gravel from the same tank resting on the bottom. With the reduced feeding schedule and also switching more to a vegetable diet (fresh veggies, veggie pellets, spirolina flakes) there is probably less ammonia being created.
I have finished the 4-day Erythromycin treatment for the 2 tetras in the 10g. They definitely look better although there is still some whitish growth left. I will probably wait a few days before trying again. I will continue to give them MB/salt baths (with a bit of Erythromycin in the bath also) and continue to use Melafix in the tank. For the most part the pair are getting along well but the male has intermittently started chasing/poking at the female. The chasing is not too terrible based on previous male-female tetra chasing I've witnessed (I have lost 2 females before I believe from being stressed out from the chasing) but it's still enough to make her swim behind the HOB filter to hide. So I've tripled the number of plastic plants from 2 to 6 to give her more cover and it's helped some but not totally eliminated the problem. I put the male in a breeding cage for a few hours timeout and gave him a lecture on how to treat a lady but apparently he wasn't paying much attention because he was after her a few minutes after being released from the cage. I wonder if adding some large rocks or a cave decoration would help? The other thought I had was just make a plastic divider (with small holes) to separate them while they share this tank.
I'm looking for better ways to store the chloramine-free water on my next water run and I was thinking those big water cooler jugs might be nice for that. I don't know if the water cooler company throws those away when emptied or do they get recycled? I guess I should call one of those companies and find out.
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Post by fishfever on Sept 14, 2009 23:19:15 GMT -5
I have done one 50% water change to drop the ammonia from 0.5 to 0.25ppm and it seems to be holding in that range. Would like to see it back to 0 eventually but at least it's manageable with Prime in this range and I have plenty of chloramine-free water saved for the next water change.
I have started another 4-day treatment for the two tetras with mouth fungus in the 10g. The male is not as aggressive as he was and the female seems to be getting used to the mild chasing since she doesn't hide for very long (maybe a few seconds) before coming back out and actually seeking the male. Early this morning before the MB/salt bath I witnessed what appears to be spawning activity between the pair although I didn't see any eggs this evening. There was alot of frantic sort of dancing-like swimming, sometimes together and sometimes apart with lots of shaking and twisting and pretty much constant motion. I dumped a good bit of freeze-dried blood worms in the tank while they were doing this and they totally ignored it; they normally gobble these up very quickly. But by evening all the food was gone; I'm sure they were starving after expending all that energy! I'm thinking the female is not full of eggs yet since she isn't really plump so it may not be that time of month yet... so it is somewhat surprising they were engaging each other like that. Will be interested in seeing if they repeat this morning activity again as it was quite entertaining and educational.
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Post by Carl on Sept 15, 2009 10:23:14 GMT -5
Not much to add other than I am following this blog of yours.
I thought I have is the chasing that you noted between your Tetras (if I read correctly), I do not have any solutions other than what you have already thought of, but I wonder if his time outs need to be longer. My worry is that stress can lower the fish' immunity, although since this chasing seems both territorial and maybe even spawning related, this also may indicate your tank is doing better.
BTW, have you received my replies to your emails? I am concerned after you said you did not receive the last email reply.
Carl
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Post by fishfever on Sept 24, 2009 17:22:59 GMT -5
Carl, I didn't receive any response to the question I had about the O-ring availabilty, if that is the emails you are referring to. It's not a big deal but if you happened to have them I would order them along with an existing order ready to go. But I don't need it immediately it is only for preventive maintenance, not to fix any actual problem with the filter.
Ever since the spawning episode the chasing has gone down quite a bit in the 10g hospital tank. I only saw them try to spawn this once but after this event it seems to have greatly reduced the chasing. I have completed the 2nd 4-day Erythromycin treatment and there is more improvement (although the mouth fungus is still not completely eradicated yet) so I will continue with the MB/salt baths and Melafix in the tank.
In the 26g tank the total ammonia is now 0 and has been for a few days so that part of the recycling is done it appears. The nitrites have been as high as 1ppm but are currently steady at 0.25ppm. By the way I bugged Seachem support to death because the Prime bottle does not say how much nitrite can be detoxified with a standard dose (5mL per 50g). The bottle says you can add up to 5x the standard dose for a nitrite emergency but unless you know how much a standard dose detoxifies how will you know when to add more? So the answer after a bunch of emailing is ~2.2ppm nitrite IF there is no ammonia and no/low nitrates (this is my situation). So at 0.25ppm nitrite a standard dose of Prime every other day is more than enough. I'm guessing the pH probably comes into play also but I'm currently a little over 7.0 which is fairly typical.
I'll be happy to have made my last run to the other property for chloramine-free water, usually bringing back at least 60 gallons per trip. I'm sure my neighbors by now are wondering what's wrong with our public water and at the other property where I'm gather the chloramine-free water the neighbors are probably wondering if there's an upcoming water shortage they don't know about. Because the tank is now converting ammonia I can start using water with chloramine since Prime is easily able to neutralize the ammonia for a typical 15-20% water change until the bacteria can convert it to nitrite. The water with chloramine is really only a problem when cycling with fish; I'm guessing you might be able to complete a fishless cycle using nothing but water with chloramines since you already have ammonia to get it going (I might try this experiment some day).
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Post by fishfever on Sept 25, 2009 16:52:02 GMT -5
Carl, I found your responses in my SPAM box. This is odd because I have received email from you before (in fact I am looking at one that Steven sent from the same "info" email in August that made it through fine). I do note that your second email said the first could have ended up in the SPAM box but of course it also ended up in the SPAM box! I have my order ready again but now you are out of regular medium Wonder shells and that just happens to be the size I use so will wat a few days... I'm not out yet. I measured the nitrite in the 26g and it is now 0 along with ammonia so I believe this tank is FINALLY recycled; it probably took close to 2 months to get it back and alot of work to keep the tank safe given the chloramine problem. I think moving the old filter and a stocking full of gravel from a mature tank did the trick. I guarantee I will be alot more careful about medicating this tank in the future!
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Post by Carl on Sept 25, 2009 19:09:29 GMT -5
Glad to read you found your emails from us, as I pride ourselves on returning emails as quickly as possible; I also checked and found that the emails went through, so I was scratching my head until you replied here. Thanks for the information you shared from SeaChem about Prime, this is very useful information and I already added this to the SeaChem Page on our website. Carl
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Post by fishfever on Oct 2, 2009 23:00:48 GMT -5
Well I think I've royally screwed up this time... Tonight I gave the 2 tetras with mouth fungus a PP/salt bath (which I've done a number of times, but more MB/salt baths) but instead of just the bath I swabbed their mouths with the PP solution out of the bottle (whatever strength that is). Then I put them in the bath as usual although the PP bath strength was probably higher due to the swabbing. The male started struggling almost immediately after the bath, going to the top of the hospital tank and died within 30 minutes. The female also looks like she is struggling although she is still alive (just barely). But they both seemed fine just prior to the bath based on their strong flopping as I swabbed their mouths. I also had 3 platys in the tank for minor issues so I put them in the bath as well and they seem fine (but did not swab them). So I am thinking this is an overdose of PP? I really hate this, the male was one of our real favorites with an extremely active and playful personality and we're really going to miss him.
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Post by Carl on Oct 3, 2009 11:04:55 GMT -5
Sorry about your loss with your prize Tetra. Although unusual, this is unfortunately not unheard of with Potassium Permanganate (depending upon the strength) since it is a strong oxidizer. Methylene Blue does not have this risk as it would take copious amounts to poison a fish, but it is also not as effective for some external lesions or bacterial infections. An immediate dip in tank water with a 5x dose of Prime will stop this reaction. I should note this in the bath article, I only note this in the article about Potassium Permanganate (see: Aquarium Medications 3; Potassium Permanganate). I will correct this This fish may have had other "issues" as well to react this way, especially since you have performed this procedure many times before without a problem. Again , I hope you do not have future problems this way. Carl
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