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Post by jonv on Jun 1, 2009 13:34:56 GMT -5
I am hoping this might help other people as well as myself. I've been thinking about something recently in light of medications and things it's used to treat. In some small reading and conversations, it's been brought up that often times a medication can be ineffective on certain bacteria as it gets immunity to if if used so many times.
With that idea in mind, medications like Meth blue can be harmful to the biological filter bacteria we do need in the hobby. If one is using Meth blue in the tank, if the pathogens we don't want in there can adapt or become immune to it's effects, why does the nitric bacteria we want not adapt? I'm just using that as an example, and have been told that some medications which are gram positive and negative target certain bacteria as well as read Carl's research. I can't seem to get a grasp then if the bad things can adapt, why can't the things we do want in the tank do the same? Or am I thinking about this from the wrong angle?
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Post by Carl on Jun 1, 2009 13:43:52 GMT -5
One reason is the mode of operation as to how a treatment "kills". Antibiotics work differently than do chemical treatments such as Methylene Blue and and are much more likely to be over come by pathogen adaptation/mutation (which I believe is the more applicable term, as there is no change in actual life form, so evolution does not apply). Generally speaking MB is not overcome by adaptation, however it is also not as strong as many of the antibiotics available either. See this article for the many different modes of antibiotic operation against pathogens in this article: AQUARIUM MEDICATIONS, treatments, how they work, and which ones to use and not to use.Carl Carl
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Post by jonv on Jun 1, 2009 13:58:18 GMT -5
Carl,
Would I be on the wrong logic then to assume that chemical treatments are not that easily coped with by pathogens, however, chemical treatments are not likely to be quite as effective as a course of action as a anti-biotic treatment?
One thing that I just remembered on your link, is a key point that if an anti-biotic medication is used, and cut short, this would help speed along an immunity development. This makes sense to me. I do wonder though, as we spoke about with Columnaris and the point made that you pretty much cannot devoid a tank of this, but control it from getting a foothold. What happens should a keeper fail by some reason, and the door got opened again after you have used something like I did, Furan II and Kanaplex?
To go a bit deeper on that question, I wonder this:
1. Does the time in between you use a treatment factor into possible effectiveness? For example, it's been almost 1 year when I used the Furan II Kanaplex option. If I ever say signs of Columnaris in there again, would I be better off to assume this outbreak has immunity to those two anti-biotics, or try it and see how it goes?
2. What I draw as a next line from that, pending input, is assuming you cannot use that medication again due to possible immunity, wouldn't a keeper at some point, should they continue to have issues with the same pathogen, run out of options to treat a tank?
My hope is to support your link with other questions, and expanding the scope of what your information is covering, and thus eliminating many possible emails of how and why of what to do, but also I actually don't know what to think myself lol. Thanks Carl!
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Post by Carl on Jun 1, 2009 16:03:22 GMT -5
Carl, Would I be on the wrong logic then to assume that chemical treatments are not that easily coped with by pathogens, however, chemical treatments are not likely to be quite as effective as a course of action as a anti-biotic treatment? As a generalization the answer is yes, especially with bacteria, but not so much with saprolegnia, virus, & more so protozoa This is an error many will make, not just in fish keeping, but in Veterinary or human treatment. A full antibiotic coarse is important to prevent pathogen immunity. Not necessary, especially if used correctly. For example I am often prescribed amoxicillin for my tooth infections; I always follow the treatment its full coarse, and each time it works. However when I got a staph infection the treatment was discontinued before the pathogen was beat (due to a quack of a Dr.), and thus I cannot use these antibiotics anymore for this staph infection when it flairs up. This can depend upon the effectiveness the previous time and ties into the previous question/answer. This is another reason for mild infections to start out with mild treatments (as most human Drs. do as well), this will keep stronger treatments more readily effective when called upon, and as well also is easier on the tank bio system. I would add as a summary, that if your fully defeated a pathogen such as Columnaris with a treatment regimine, this same regimine should work again (assuming it was not used in between for too many preventative reasons or similary) Carl
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