Identifying Victorian Cichlids

[jonv]

I think that everyone who is new or experienced in the African Cichild keeping hobby can find something out of a subject like this, and the idea was presented to me that this would be a good and useful thread to have. I am still working up skills myself at how to ID certain species, so I am not what I would consider an expert in this, but combined into, techniques and information can help form a solid base of information in which beginning and experienced hobbyists can use.

To start off with, what I have recently picked up as my starting point, in my experience doing this, I have found it extremely helpful to make use of what images of wild caught fish of the species look like. It's important to note on this tip, that hybrids do occur in wild habitats as well, so please allow for some small error margins. Books I have looked at written by Ad Konnings are a great place to start with. Ad Konnings is well versed in this subject area and is what I would call more then qualified as an expert, as well as has published numerous books. I have also used photo images of species posted by Dr. Loiselle to narrow down Victorians as well. Making use of multiple books I do not feel can hurt you. Having several images as the colorations and looks of a species can vary from collection point, helps you to readily ID a species from a different collection site.

Another aspect I feel is important to bring up, is acquiring your stock as well. This applies strongly to us as hobbyists. From personal experience, where you buy from can be very critical to maintain a pure bloodline. I am unsure of exactly what term to use here, but I would strongly advise against acquring stock from chain stores. I am sure there are cases in which you can pick up a good pick up from a chain store, but please consider there is a corporate obligation in many cases, and the manners in which stock is collected and kept, as well as bred are not always followed through, due to expenses and budgeting at the corporate level. This leaves the door open to acquire fish of a mixed species, or species incorrectly labeled.

I would advise that picking up stock from auction sites as well should be done with great caution. While sites that sell fish via this method have certain protection measures, reading the fine print such as what I did in aquabid will reveal, most times, that the disclaimer does not hold the site responsible for sellers who sell or mislabel fish. This is one goal of this thread, to help the hobbyists to correctly ID a species they may see in a store or off an auction site.

This will be an open thread and I'm going to post more in detailed information as it progresses, but hopefully, methods everyone use with pictures and everyone going through the examination process in the thread can help improve all our skills on this aspect. Thank you and hope this helps.

[barbara]

Excellent post and points. Especially the description of where to acquire fish. Well done.

I have purchased one set of Victorians off of an auction site. The seller was known to have a good reputation, and a good line of Victorians. These were my Haplochromis sp. "Kenya Golds," and have turned into a beautiful, true species fish. I would be very cautious, as Jon points out, in purchasing any Victorian without some authentification of the species.

[jonv]

Thank you Barb. I am pleased that you were able to have a successful pick up. I think one way to help avoid getting burned in an auction bid is to look at feedback or any type of reputation a seller has. And on the flip side of the coin, while it's a great success story that Barb got a good pick up, keep in mind too, for everyone that even sellers from high rep listings can make a mistake. I would assume someone with a very high rep that makes a mistake would be an honest mistake. I would assume, in general also, if someone is a bit new to selling and makes a mistake, there is a high probability this person may not have as good a grasp on what they are selling. Mistakes do happen, and as Barb reinforced, buy with caution on bid sites.

We have listed in our forum and have thread topics on one seller, Dave's fish. I have not personally bought from Dave, but I can say outside of this forum, he comes highly recommended as well and I would give high confidence if starting out with species from there. I have personally dealt also with Atlantis Fish Hatcheries in upstate NY, which web site is www.cichlids.net Peter Rubin is the owner there, and has a 1,000,000 gallon facility as well as imports many wild caught fish.

The reason I would stress wild caught fish for the topic purpose is that the odds of getting a hybrid are going to be significantly lower then buying out of a chain store or auction. You still do have a chance of picking up one from a wild caught importer, but at much lower odds. As Barb has also noted in the Victorian thread in general, the murkiness of the waters due to de-forestation has caused males and females to not be able to ID each other, and while I do not have numerical or statistical data to support this, I would assume the occurences of hybrids could likely rise out of Lake Victoria due to this. This idea, Barbara probably would know much more, it's just a hypothesis I am assuming out of that.

I am working on a few other things multi tasking, but later on today/tonight, I'd like to begin with some picture and process information in how Vinny and I figured out how my Pseudotropheus Flavus I had bought a few years ago, ironically, off a high rep seller, actually turned out to be a hybrid, and even how Vinny helped me figure out what the likely cross was. I just need more time and photo images to present this, so please bear with me.

[brenda]

Wow Jon, great post!!! This is not only a good thread for ID’s but discussion as well.

I think the points about getting your fish from someone reputable are great points that everyone should really take to heart. There are so many hybrid Vics out there due to the fact that people do not realize how careful you need to be when mixing the different Vic species. They just assume their fish are only breeding with their correct partner, and then they pass the fry out as purebred when they are in fact not. If buying from someone you don’t know, I think a good question to ask is…What are this fishes tankmates? If they are keeping something such as Xystichromis “kyoga flameback” with Xystichromis Phytophagus that right there should set off an alarm. The females of these and MANY other Vics are nearly identical. The person could pull out the correct male for you but have mixed females since you cannot tell them apart easily, then you in turn breed them and pass them on as pure, unknowingly.

[jonv]

Thank you also Brenda. I don't want to take credit for this either, in all fairness, this was an idea suggested by Barbara, and I'm just helping her out, as well as everyone, starting the topic and getting it going. I probably would not have had the idea to start it without her help.

I also want to say I strongly feel the points you made about A) There are problems with Vics and mating in tanks, and B) A good way to help you prevent an issue is to question the seller on what is in the tanks. These are points worth their weight in gold in my opinion. I think it's outstanding and a wonderful addition to help other hobbyists. It really makes me feel good to see the combination of experience helping to form a sound solid article/document everyone can use!

You and Barbara in other threads have brought up the point you made Brenda and I think it might be effective to weave in, potential bad combinations as we progress. I do not have much practical working experience on that, so this would be something I think I need help from you and Barb on to list as much as we can. I think you both nailed the heart of the point, avoiding similar looking females, which I personally take to heart since you brought that out. I feel listing potential incompatible same tank groupings might be effective, provided you agree.

[jonv]

Subject 1: Listed as Pseudotropheus Flavus

I picked 5 of this species up back in 07. As they grew out, I lost 1 during acclimation, and I lost a second one a month later. I ended up with a reverse trio of this species, 2 males and 1 female, all living in a 180 gallon mixed Mbuna/Hap/Peacock tank. Over time as the mature males grew, they both courted the female with little fights between each other. Eventually one male became dominant and even with a 180 gallon footprint, the subdominant male of this species showed female colors most of the time. Just a brief overview.

One point of giving this overview by listing the age is that often time, if you buy young fish that are just out of being a fry or very young juveniles, as with most all Africans, the true colorings and markings do not show up until later in life. When the males first displayed their colors, the pattern appeared to be normal coloring. I did not have working experience prior, and this along with the rest of the stock were my first working Mbuna stocking. I really didn't have any idea at that time to supsect anything unusual about the fish.

I do not have an ideal photo to use for this subject, I'm using the best one I have. I still have the male in this picture actually he's over in the 75 gallon tank. The sub dom is in the 180 and he's colored up quite well in the absence of the dominant male. I can try to obtain a better shot tonight possibly. The ideal shot we'd look for is more of an overhead lateral shot that gives you a full side view of the body to examine all bars, colors, fins, markings, and overall size. A secondary shot from the front showing the face is very helpful in conjunction with a lateral body shot. For the time being this is the only shot I have I feel we can work with.



Since we do not have actual measurements to use in this shot, I can give a reference. The depth of the gravel here is about 1.5 inches thick. The top to bottom opening in that treasure chest is about 4.5-5 inches top to bottom. If you pan slightly left, you can actually see a partially dissolved large medicated wonder shell in the view, which may help allow for some size gauging.

Out of this shot, what was pointed out to me, is the sheer bulk on the body. By comparison, (Apologize here, I do not have a working shot of a typical pseudotropheus, and will get one later and edit) a typical Pseudotropheus is not nearly as deep top to bottom. The first thing that was pointed out to me was this aspect, that the body was much thicker then a typical pseudo. I then asked, is it possible he's just a very big male and I was told well it is possibly but not likely. There is no appearance of bloat in this case to also account for the extra mass, but even if we granted this point, we can move on to another issue.

Again as I apologize this isn't the best shot to work with but all I have, in Ps. Flavus wild caught images, the fading of the bars into yellow color, giving like a smeared look, starts in the body much earlier then in this image. The barring stays more apparent in this fish then what the wild caught images show. Another sign the genes are not quite all there.

The third and final point offered to me in this case was that the lips on the mouth of the fish are also much thicker then what you see in most Pseudotrophs too. While not any one single aspect is overly strong to say this screams out, hybrid, the combination of all three things being off from what a typical Ps. Flavus looks like are a case where I would agree with the conclusion, this is not a true Flavus.

Next step, let's examine a wild caught image of Ps. Flavus.

Here is a very good image I borrowed off Dave's Rare Fish of a wild caught Ps. Flavus, photo credit to K. Armke.

www.safhl.net/davesfish/images/ps_flavus.jpg

Image 2 I'd like to use from cichlids.com, user Christian listed as the fish keeper and photo taker.

www.cichlids.com/pictures/pic/F0_Pseudotropheus_Flavus.html

Third reference photo here from fishead.com, unsure of photo owner, but make clear now, this is not my fish.

images.search.yahoo.com/images/view?back=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.search.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%2Fimages%3Fp%3Dpseudotropheus%2Bflavus%26ei%3Dutf-8%26fr%3Dyfp-t-501%26fr2%3Dsg-gac&w=324&h=162&imgurl=www.fishhead.com%2Fgraphics%2Fpse_flavus.jpg&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fishhead.com%2Fcgi-bin%2Fshowimg.pl%3FFile%3Dpse_flavus.jpg%26Name%3DPseudotropheus%2Bflavus%2C%2BChinyankwazi%2BIsland%2C%2BMalawi&size=19k&name=pse+flavus+jpg&p=pseudotropheus+flavus&oid=cfc05e44c3fecbce&fr2=sg-gac&no=12&tt=130&sigr=13ms48a3m&sigi=118upq4m2&sigb=135qopimb

In the three images we see of a wild caught fish, the second and third images are great images I feel to demonstrate the deeper fading of the bars you'd see in a typical Ps. Flavus in which we do not see in my fish. I feel images 2 and 3 used demonstrate a clear pattern of the thinner top to bottom look of the male then you see in my fish. I will say I don't clearly see the point about the lips on the fish in the images, not to a point where it's overly clear, as the color being black can make it a bit harder to tell.

One final thing on this subject I'd like to add in is that Vinny also pointed out to me, he felt he could see Tropheops in my fish and that it was likely a case where, as Brenda pointed out above, a case of mixing two similar looking species in the sellers tank. I will have to speak with him again to get the species we examined, other then I can only say without recalling the exact species, the image of the Tropheops he thought was mixed, had almost the exact same appearence you'd see in a Flavus and with an untrained eye, keeping both species in the tank, could easily be mistaken for each other. As I find the species, I will update this demo to finalize it.

In closing, I realize this is not a slam dunk case where the pattern and color and marking difference are obvious, but as we all look at hybrids, the differences can often be very subtle and without actually witnessing a spawn, what genes get mixed and what overall look a potential hybrid may carry, is going to be unknown. The biggest reason I want to keep this topic alive and build it, is that in the cichlid keeping hobby, from the African prespective at least, this is a touchy subject which has been noted most recently in the thread posted by Danny about hybrids being offensive. Other threads in the forum by Barbara and Brenda have brought to light much about enviromental changes occuring which can cause natural hybrids. The reason I feel it is important for us to consider and factor this, is that at some point in time, should things continue along this road, there may be a day when no species of cichlid in the lakes they come from may be pure. There very much may become a day when pure species could be only found in a tank. It may be a long shot or take something drastic for that to occur, however, there really is no harm as well in learning how to ID your fish better either. I thank you for your time, and I will update this example asap.

[Carl]

Excellent post Jon.

I added a hyper link for Daves Rare Fish and hosted your picture for easier reading so that the readers does not have to click in and out (I cannot do this with the others since they are others properly). I also resized it and cropped it.

Carl

[jonv]

Thank you Carl. I must confess, in the links and HTML, Graphics and such, I am not very skilled in these things. Eve fixed me up an aquabid ad one time, and without her help I wouldn't have had any clue where to start. We used to have a help thing, and apologize if we do now, about how to make use of that for posting images and such. I don't want to create a trail of work for the staff, so again thank you for fixing that up.

I'd like to add another image, a more recent one that the male happend to be in the shot. I am not sure if this will help support this examination or not, but it is a more recent image and a little more clearer. What I take out of this shot again a key thing on the fading towards the back of the tail. I am sure while not every single male will fade out at the same point, what I see in the wild species shots and mine, is the fading is much more distinct and vibrant in the wild images then in mine. I would like to know if this does or does not support that line of though in this image please.

[jonv]

You know, I just realized something now and never even thought of it. This really isn't a Victorian!!! I am really sorry, and might have to retitle this or move it. I never even gave that a thought I just took the first example of ID off the top of my head. I am really sorry about that! Please everyone reading, understand this is NOT a Victorian species.

[barbara]

I wouldn't change it Jon. Even if it isn't a Victorian, it's a thorough accounting of how you determined a fish was a hybrid. I think the lesson behind it is enough.

Good job, by the way.

[jonv]

Subject 2: Xistochromis Phytophagus or Paralabidochromis sp. "Rock Kribensis"?

This is a more recent species I acquired via aquabid, with the seller listing this as Xistochromis Phytophagus "Christmas Fulu". I acquired this group, of 10, in late January of this year. There were 2 that died in transit, I believe to be a shipper issue as the whole group looked extremely weak even on overnight delivery. I used a slow acclimation over 90 mins, tank to bag and temp differential, yet a few days later I lost 2 more, and ended up with 6. I was keeping them in my 100 gallon tank which was the same tank I had my breeding pair of Pytchochromis Oligocanthus in. Once the Oligocanthus spawned, the aggression of the parents kept the Victorians in the tank, on sides of the tank. Though not directly on topic, just for general information, the other species in the tank were a Lipochromis sp. "Matumbai Hunter", and a small group of Labidochromis Caeruleus.

One male of this group of six that made it began to color up withing a few weeks, first showing some bright red coloring along the gill and mid area of the body. Red mostly dominates the color pattern of him now, with a slight showing of yellow towards the back. The stock is now in the 180 gallon tank and the 100 gallon tank is now acting as a fry grow out tank for numerous species. While in the 180, before I had sold my Jardini, 2 became eaten or died from the stress of it, so currently there are 4, 1 male and 3 female.

This is actually going to be a working subject that needs input. My initial conclusion was nothing wrong, I figured the coloring would pick up as time went on. Brenda had mailed me and I totally missed she thought I should take another look at this, so she picked up on this actually. Vinny also mentioned to me when I was showing him progress of the male, he said right off, dude, that's not a Fulu. So again, we pulled up wild caught images and the look of the images we saw, compared to mine, didn't even match at all.

Recently, Barbara and I were discussing this as well. I stumbled across a listing from a different seller on aquabid that has an image looking exactly like the fish I have, listed again, as Fulu. Let's take this time right now to pull up some recent images of the male, females, the listing, and then wild caught images for comparison.


My male "Fulu":




Six weeks ago, same male




A female of the species I have:




Wild male image from cichlid-forum, photo credit, Dr. Loiselle

www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/image.php?id=1572&pic=1


Image taken from Daves Fish, no photo credit listed on page




Another image, from gcca.com photo credit again by Dr. Loiselle




And finally, the aquabid ad I recently saw

www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi?fwcichlidsv&1243702813

The first thing that jumps out at me on examination of the images to mine as well as the aquabid ad is that the patterns do not look similar nor the same really. What I pick up on the images is that the barring patterns on my stock and the aquabid appear to be a close match of the same species and the pattern runs horizontal. The images of the wild caughts by Dr. Loiselle as well as off Dave's page is the pattern runs vertical.

Another aspect that stands out to me is a much deeper hue of colors in the wild caught and Dave images, and a lack of distinct color patterns on mine and the aquabid ad. I can see hints of blue and green hues in the middle images, on mine and the aquabid ad, I see nothing of the sort, mostly straight red and yellow.

Yet one other aspect that makes me suspect I do not have Fulu is that there appears to be some barring and black marks along the face and eye area, which seem to be absent from the images of what I have and the aquabid ad.

What I am unsure of is, that if it is possible Fulu could have a horizontal pattern to them, where looking at the images of what is in my tank, and the aquabid ad, the line is a clear solid line, not broken up, which I feel closely resembles that of a Paralabidochromis sp. "Rock Kribensis" I'm fairly certain of this much that what was sold to me in January are not Fulu. It would be helpful if someone does know if it's possible or has seen Fulu display an unbroken horizontal pattern though.

On a side note, I did pick up a colony from a seller in Long Island, via Vinny of Xistochromis Phytophagus. I'm collecting images of some emerging males in the group, but haven't gotten a quality one just yet. I can say as well, what I picked up last month and what I got in January, those fish really do not appear to be similar on any level I can see. The coloring male of my recent pick ups, have a more light pinkish red color, show some yellow with a hint of blue starting to come out, has a line dot near the eye as well. The adult female I do have, as well as the younger non colored ones that may be female, are not even close to yellow/gold at all, but silver looking. Input on this would be helpful to confirm or correct this assessment.

[jonv]

I tried to save the work of hyperlinking the images, but I cannot seem to figure out how to do this, so I am sorry for making clean up work.

[barbara]

Barbara's first ID:

I know the ID on this fish. What I want to know is why it is this particular species. What makes it so.

I picked a picture out, taken by my husband. This fish should be pretty easy to ID...not a whole lot of confusion. BUT...what is it?

[barbara]

Jon, this was my sub-adult Xystichromis phytophagus. This is what I know the species to look like. I am terrible at markers, but I'm not seeing the green I come to expect from this species.

He is not showing any barring in this picture. The female to the left of him is, though. I no longer have these fish.

[brenda]

These would be some good pics for tydus to check out.

[jonv]

Barbara, I can see a similarity yes actually. Similar to what I have, and what I see absent in the male of that picture, is no distinct horizontal line across the middle area like the one I have does, and your male has a clear featured line across the face and eye, which I cannot find on that suspect male I have. There is a similar look I agree on that. Some subtle difference in them that yours does look closer to the wild images then mine does. I got to try to get the shots of the recent pick ups posted when I can get them of better quality. I see in my recent pick up, the adult female, looks just like the female in your shot.

[barbara]

Same fish, the fulu, different coloration. Also not as good of a camera, and different lighting. This is part of what makes identifying Victorians so difficult.

[eve]

May 27, 2009 18:45:51 GMT -5 jonv said:

I tried to save the work of hyperlinking the images, but I cannot seem to figure out how to do this, so I am sorry for making clean up work.

Great work, love it


as for the pictures from photobucket
make sure you copy the direct link
paste and highlight and click on the picture button , right next globe button, second row and hit preview to make sure the picture works

there are pictures, which are under copyright, and won't work via this hyperlink button, so just simply paste the address to the picture as you did so far

[brenda]

Barbara,I know what your ID pic is but I don't know why.

Jon, can you try to get some better pics of your "fulu" in question...I just don't know on these guys 100% new pics may help.

[barbara]

This is such a great thread, I hate to see it go silent.

OK, the fish I posted was a Mbipia cf. Lutea. My husband captured that picture, and the fish was pretty close to breeding dress. The cf. means that this fish is Lutea-like...there is a fish in Europe that is called Mbipia Lutea, and to keep from confusing the 2, this one is like a Lutea, but it's not certain that is the same species. Gotta love Victorian ID!

I'm terrible at making ID's. I don't get the subtle differences...but to me, the barring on this fish is pretty definite, and the fact that the vertical barring is darker where the midline horizontal bar should be....which is broken, is a pretty good sign. Is this typical?

This male does not show the body coloration that I would expect to see. He does not have the red on the belly that I would look for. I'm sure this fish is true, because of the source.

Just a side note....and a plug for endangered species in general. This species was saved in the hobby by one person. He was the only one with a colony, and was able to breed them and distribute them to other people. This is one example of how one tank can make a difference.