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Post by goldenpuon on Apr 19, 2009 12:58:45 GMT -5
I know a lot of you buy wild-caught fish. But I've heard the methods to catch them can be hurtful to the fish and the environment. Like some people catch them using cyanide to get fish from reefs and also catching too many fish from the wild reducing their numbers. Not that removing them from the wild can be bad like in some cichlid species' case that need to be captively bred to help save them from extinction but I mean other fish species.
I just wanted to make sure that everyone is aware of some of the problems with catching fish from the wild and also if you do get fish from the wild, making sure they are caught in a way that doesn't hurt the environment.
I'm not trying to say anything is wrong with catching wild fish, it can be good if it is done to breed them to save them from extinction. I just want you guys to be aware of some of the problems with catching some (not all) species of fish from the wild. So when you buy wild caught fish, just make sure they are caught in an appropriate manner.
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Post by barbara on Apr 19, 2009 13:10:28 GMT -5
That's a good point. I don't normally buy wild caught, but I did on my plecos. I have no idea on how they were caught, or actually where they were caught. I don't know if you can always get that information.
One of the arguements I see against wild caught, especially with at risk fish, is that we are taking fish from the wild that might be able to repopulate that area. In speaking with Claudia Dickinson, the head of CARES, she made the comment that there is a reason these fish are at risk, and that by taking a colony, or a breeding pair if that's all that is available, hopefully by captive breeding we can reduce the number that are taken out of the wild, and ensure their survival, at least in our tanks.
With the waters of the world in such jeopardy, due to deforestation, pollution, introduced species, damming, etc., a lot of the fish that we have now are soon to reach the at risk category. Anything that you keep, breed and distribute lessens the need for wild caught fish of that species. If some of the damming goes through that is being suggested, most of our plecos, cories, and some tetras will be at risk for extinction in the very near future.
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Post by goldenpuon on Apr 19, 2009 13:50:50 GMT -5
I'm glad you know about some of the problems with wild-caught fish. I have never bought wild-caught fish either. Then again, I can always find the fish I need at my local petstore since I've never owned an exotic species of fish. I keep guppies, goldfish, and bettas, really common fish species.
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Post by bikeguy33 on Apr 19, 2009 20:39:01 GMT -5
i have dealt with many stores....and to clear my conscience, i usually ask how they are caught. you have to keep in mind renee.....most store keepers when asked will tell you what you want to hear...some methods of catching wild tho are terrible to say the least.
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Post by murdock6701 on Apr 19, 2009 21:02:59 GMT -5
Renee, I just wanted to say that I think your post was very well thought of and well written and brings to light something most people fail to take notice of - good job!
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Post by barbara on Apr 19, 2009 21:44:13 GMT -5
i have dealt with many stores....and to clear my conscience, i usually ask how they are caught. you have to keep in mind renee.....most store keepers when asked will tell you what you want to hear...some methods of catching wild tho are terrible to say the least. Exactly. They will tell you what you want to hear, not the truth. Most fish I have aren't exported anymore, but to be honest, if they were, I'd be working with wild caught. I won't say regardless of methods, but I will say that I'd prefer to add in some wild blood to the fish I'm breeding. Some of the fish that I am working with have only been found once, and only a very small number were found. Xystichromis phytophagus (Christmas fulu), Xystichromis sp. "Dayglow" to name 2. I'd love to have some wild stock to cross with my fish, but not at any cost.
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Post by jonv on Apr 19, 2009 23:34:28 GMT -5
There is so much more to look at this subject beyond face value. One way is to look at this from the painted fish point of view that if people buy them, that promotes it to occur even more.
The other way in which I look at this is that, unless I actually know what is being done catching the fish, it is something to be dealt with on a different level then just not buying them. I'm sure Barb would well note in this case of African breeding, while there is a risk, you also improve your bloodline by intermixing tank kept with wild caughts. After so many generations in a tank, I am sure inbreeding occurs quite more often then it would in the wild, so keeping a bloodline with wild genes in it I am sure is a good thing, aside from possible pathogen risk.
As Claudia noted, something is causing problems, and I agree that should be looked at, but I think many of what is causing the problems is actually man made problems such as climate change and degradation of habitat, mainly due to over logging. If we are to raise any alarm in how fish are caught, it might be just as worth while to make a case about the causes done by man making populations issues to begin with. I'm sure it doesn't help either when invasive species are purposely brought in either, but all these factors just listed, are things that legislation needs to address in clear and unambivolent words, as well I think, assign some very severe punishments to offenders.
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Post by Carl on Apr 20, 2009 9:39:55 GMT -5
I would add to this, that often (at least from my experience) that it is not just catching methods that are the problem, rather shipping and handling of the fish. In marine fish cyanide is not used much anymore due to international regulation (although some areas of the Philippines use this method in black market style capture). The problem I have seem (especially in marine fish) is that the fish are often packaged in too small a bag with too little water and sometimes too many fish. The result is ammonia poisoning, and often dangerous pH levels that make acclimation difficult or impossible. These wholesalers often appeal to retailers that desire the lowest price possible, so the end buyer needs to be aware of shopping too much for price, especially for wild caught marine fish. I have had persons over the years buy fish from another LFS that sold poorly shipped fish ask why the fish often dies a month or two later, and I would point out that the source of this stores fish was likely of questionable integrity in their shipping methods. This is why I stuck with the few high end importers and not with the lower end importers/shippers that are more common: Here are a couple of videos of this importer that I visit at LAX every time I am down that was my primary marine importer: www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IkPG-wSYncwww.youtube.com/watch?v=r8qdxHw0gJoCarl
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Post by jonv on Apr 20, 2009 10:05:31 GMT -5
That is a very good point Carl, and it seemed to me to go a bit outside of the topic heading so I didn't want to bring that up myself, but I'd agree with this point you have very much. I think as well, many LFS's probably don't even allow enough recovery time from shipping. I mean if we figure this, that from the time the fish is caught, bagged up, shipped to a clearing house or port, then from the port to the whole seller, from whole seller to store, that's a great deal of time kept in bagged water. Short of use of chemicals, fresh or salt water, I am not sure many species would survive such a journey really. But I think the big problem here is if how the fish are caught is a hot topic, how can this really be proven short of keeping observers on collectors? To me, this would be a difficult thing to prove, and it's not like you are likely to get an accurate answer from a commerical importer if asked about the collection methods, so what can one really do anyways other then rely on national and international legislation and law enforcement? Atlantis Fish www.cichlids.net is basically the only whole seller I even deal with. I spoke with the owner about opening a business actually. Peter Rubin is a very intelligent and experienced business owner at least in terms of the cichlid hobby. I do now know what goes on in getting his stock, but I do know he carries a good deal of wild caughts and you do pay more for that as well. Unless something dire comes to my attention if Peter is doing anything shady in obtaining the species, I'm not going to stop doing business with him any time soon, I can say that much.
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Post by goldenpuon on Apr 20, 2009 15:36:56 GMT -5
I agree. Those factors should also be taken into consideration like deforestation, non-native species, and also how the fish are transported before they are sold. Obtaining wild fish is not always wrong like you mentioned Jon, that you get some of your wild-caught fish from trusted sources like Atlantis Fish.
I think people should set up more regulation on catching fsih from the wild, so not to reduce their numbers too much and also to impose heavier fines to people who sell them on the black market. Preserving their habitat and breeding them in captivity if they are endangered should also be done more. Not to say that people aren't already doing this but more people need to contribute to protect wild fish populations with all of the endangderd fish species out there.
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Post by Chris4Reef on Apr 20, 2009 21:16:57 GMT -5
From the owner side, yes collecting saltwater fish can be bad, but i like to believe we are getting better and doing better practices that we dont end up killing the reef.
I know i like some wild fish due to the coloration and patterns that are better than tank bred fish. However you cant beat tank raised fishes with their hardiness. They are born and raised in home conditions which helps them not get sick as often and breed more.
Sometimes in the marine hobby, people buy wild caught fish for the wrong reason, trying to add value to their tank where they can say that there fish come from XYZ etc... but they dont know special reasons there for they cant truely value it.
So this is an interesting topic.
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Post by brenda on Apr 20, 2009 22:09:06 GMT -5
You also have to realize that it is sometimes pertinent to take fish out of the wild...Maybe they will cease to exist in the wild but if they can be kept in the hands of dedicated people they can at least still exist. This is an issue with many Vics and I am sure some of the Madagascar species, they don't exist in the wild but dedicated people are trying to ensure they they don't become completely extinct. One person really can make a difference. I don't know how all these fish are caught and you probably never will know.
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Post by kagome on Apr 20, 2009 22:25:57 GMT -5
As for me, being a loach enthusiast, I am stuck in a weird spot as far as this goes. Botia and Hillstream loaches do not breed readily in an aquarium, although through added hormones it can be done in some instances. So in order for me to keep loaches I have to buy wild caught. And trust me, the guy working at Petsmart doesn't even know that they come from Asia, much less whether or not they are caught and shipped under good and humane circumstances. Even my locally owned LFS's usually don't have any idea about the fish before they come through the door of their shop. So I just have to take my chances.
Actually, there is a rumor floating around on the internet that if you have enough angelicus loaches in a big enough tank that they will successfully spawn, but I have no way to confirm this. I would love to take a stab at this someday because I love these loaches and it would make me really happy to help spread their popularity versus the clown loach which most people don't have the proper conditions for long term. Also, this would cut down on the problems the angelicus have such as coming in with loads of internal parasites and the like and would also hopefully bring down their cost so more people would be interested in them.
I do feel really bad for loaches and other delicate and sensitive fish when these fly by night guys harvest and ship them, I'm sure they suffer a great deal under those conditions. I wish I had a source for purely tank raised loaches but with this genus there really isn't a whole lot of choice.
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Post by bikeguy33 on Apr 21, 2009 0:39:15 GMT -5
not sure and correct me if i am wrong...but there has only been 1 successful spawn of clowns in captivity and done by a fellow in england.....not sure how to find the article,but it has to be out there somewhere. i`ll try and find it...
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Post by Carl on Apr 21, 2009 8:44:17 GMT -5
not sure and correct me if i am wrong...but there has only been 1 successful spawn of clowns in captivity and done by a fellow in england.....not sure how to find the article,but it has to be out there somewhere. i`ll try and find it... Is this Clown Loaches Bill? Carl
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Post by barbara on Apr 21, 2009 9:42:15 GMT -5
When you say things about more people need to keep endangered fish, I agree. Some of the species survival programs have failed, or have given up. But you have to remember, this is what I do.
I'm not going to list all of the things that I do for at risk species, because it sounds like I want applause or recognition. That is far from the truth. But, at least weekly I answer emails from people that are interested in keeping at risk species, and I try to help facilitate this. I have to try to weed out the people that are looking for free fish to turn a profit from the people who are serious about helping the cause. I have joined many forums to spread the word on at risk cichlids. Brenda is my number one helper in this. She comes behind me and bumps up my threads on a regular basis, so I'm not the only one posting to threads. I won't count how many fish I have donated to various people and causes. I've not received a penny for any of my fish, but I have paid for most of the ones I have received. I breed these fish with the intention of giving them away to other like minded people, or to be used to distribute to other clubs, with any proceeds going to the cause. It is really easy to say that more people should be keeping endangered fish. It is not as easy as you might think to actually do it. Finding quality fish from reputable people takes time, energy, money and patience. There are a lot of people who are trying to make a difference. There are even more who are trying to make a buck off of this. There are a lot of fish that are in need of captive breeding programs. Some can be housed in smaller tanks, some need very large tanks. The variety is there, if you are willing to research. Ameca splendens is a Goodeid that is at risk. This fish can be comfortably housed in a 20 gallon. There are a variety of bettas and Gouramis that are on the list now. It's not all cichlids, but cichlids are where my personal interests lie. I can only do so much, as any other hobbyist has their limitations on what they can keep, and keep well.
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Post by Carl on Apr 21, 2009 13:41:37 GMT -5
All I can add is: Well said Barbara!
Carl
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Post by bikeguy33 on Apr 21, 2009 20:31:36 GMT -5
Yup Carl...its the clowns. wish i could remember where the article was but i will look for it. and i agree with Carl whole heartedly....way to go brenda.
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Post by Aquaholic (MFK) on May 21, 2009 0:50:27 GMT -5
I am sorry to just jump into the middle of this conversation, but I am very close to this subject. I catch and keep a lot of wild fish. I am glad it was brought to light the fact that some wild caught fish are caught in ways that are harmfull to the fish, and enviroment, but it is not always this way either. there are a few fish, readily available in the pet stores that are not commonly bred, which means that the ones available at the pet stores are caught in the wild. The people that catch them for a living do it in a method that will protect the enviroment so that they will have fish to catch, and sell, the following year. Now the method of catching and transporting the fish is still crude, and not that healthy for the fish, but it is how the process works for now.
I basiclly just need to say, that if it was not for people catching wild fish and deciding to keep them, we would not have, or be so interested in the hobbies that we have. I love keeping wild fish, and especially local fish, it is a good educational tool for people and kids to learn about the fish that are in your local waterways.
I did not read everyones responce to this thread, so I appologize if I have repeated anything that was already said. I just had to give my point of veiw on the subject.
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Post by Carl on May 21, 2009 9:11:48 GMT -5
I basiclly just need to say, that if it was not for people catching wild fish and deciding to keep them, we would not have, or be so interested in the hobbies that we have. I love keeping wild fish, and especially local fish, it is a good educational tool for people and kids to learn about the fish that are in your local waterways. I totally agree with this point! As to shipping, this is where many short cuts are done that harm both wild and captive bred fish, and from my view is generally the bigger issue. The problem is that there are good shipping methods, however so many persons only purchase based on price (I know this all too well when many would come into my LFS with fish bought elsewhere that they wanted me to look at due to problems and when I would ask why they kept going back even though they had problems they would state that this stores fish were 25% cheaper than mine, not realizing that this was no bargain in the end). Purchasing from a store that buys only from high end reputable shippers would help greatly with this problem. Quality Marine (Eve met me there while I was in LA) is a good example of a top notch importer that does not take short cuts in shipping or catching practices. Carl
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