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Post by jonv on Sept 18, 2008 19:15:25 GMT -5
We seem to be picking up quite a nice group of experienced cichlid keepers and I'm happy to see that personally. Today I found my female Albino Protomelas Steveni holding yet again. I'll probably have produced now like close to 100 fry in about a month just from that 1 female. I'm pretty impressed with that considering this female is a fish spawned in my tanks before, and now spawning herself.
I just cleaned out the tanks yesterday and now found her holding today. I'd seen the males making passes at her to get her to spawn, and he must have succeeded during the night some time.
That is my subject for discussion here. How many of you others have found or seen that spawning occured within a day or two of a water change? I'm curious about this. I've seen some post about using colder water will do it, under the logic that it simulates the natural temperature drop that comes in nature when it rains. I've always used rather warm water since my heaters, even at 300 W a piece never seem to keep the water above 80 due to the sheer volume it has to heat.
Either way, hot or cold, I would venture to say, though I never started documenting it, that about half all my spawns have occured within 1-2 days of a water change. Does anyone know the correlation of the water change and spawning? Are they linked in any way or just sheer coincidence?
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Post by brenda on Sept 18, 2008 19:30:21 GMT -5
I have read about that happening to a LOT of people. I just did water changes yesterday...I'll let ya know if any spawn.
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Post by Carl on Sept 18, 2008 19:58:03 GMT -5
I cannot speak to the hot or cold water aspect, however I have also notived (not documented though), MANY fish to spawn after a water change in mine or my clients tanks. I remember one tank with Convicts that had a spawn after almost every cleaning I did there. In the case of this tank, this customer was a more irregular client, so water changes made a more dramatic change in water parameters than my clients with very strict service schedules. If I were to venture a reason it would be due to the fact of improved water quality as water changes (depending on water used to replace the old water) would improve important factors such as calcium and other minerals, lower nitrates, and improve Redox Balance. Carl
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Post by jonv on Sept 18, 2008 20:06:09 GMT -5
That's along the lines of something I was hoping to see Carl. From a biological stand point, the influx of new minerals and lowering of the nitrate, is it to assume then that the lack of the minerals and levels of nitrate suppress reproduction?
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Post by Carl on Sept 18, 2008 20:13:27 GMT -5
That's along the lines of something I was hoping to see Carl. From a biological stand point, the influx of new minerals and lowering of the nitrate, is it to assume then that the lack of the minerals and levels of nitrate suppress reproduction? That is the assumption, with the keyword assumption since I do not know of any studies nor have performed any studies with controlled data groups to verify this. However I think this is a pretty safe assumption since there are studies that show the harm to growth due to high nitrates, and as well studies as to health and vitality due to healthy mineral levels and Redox, so I think we can reasonably extrapolate this out to breeding as well. Carl
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Post by jonv on Sept 18, 2008 20:20:58 GMT -5
I had looked over the articles on redox before which was useful in keeping the hardness levels up. I'm wondering if such an aspect like doing daily water changes, or say if you connected a tank inline with an automatically refreshing source, like if somehow you could hook the tank up with the sink and having the water dechlorinated that comes in, would this then increase spawning? Like if your tank could be kept so it's also 0 nitrates all the time? Would that then by logic cause or trigger constant spawning?
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Post by Carl on Sept 18, 2008 22:03:01 GMT -5
I have made this on a few ponds which is what I call flow through or spring fed filtration. This certainly keeps a clean pond as per nitrates and a healthy Redox as well. I had many Goldfish and Koi spawn in these ponds as well. However I think the changes in parameters is in itself a stimulant as I have seen this with other fish such as the Convicts I mentioned and Angelfish as well.
Either way keeping low nitrates and healthy Redox and mineral levels also pays dividends as per the health of any fry that hatch as well. I do no that the before mentioned ponds I serviced had rapid growth rates of the fry when compared to the more “average” water quality ponds.
I think this thread could be added to by others such as Penycat or Suzy-Q, as they too are breeders.
Carl
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Post by goldenpuon on Sept 19, 2008 16:34:54 GMT -5
I have read many times that fish breed after wtaer changes. However, I have not done enough breeding or recording of the correlation between water chnages and spawning to know.
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Post by murdock6701 on Sept 19, 2008 17:26:12 GMT -5
water temperature changes trigger breeding in most fish - it's like fooling them with a change of season - most of us probably tend to put warmer water in than cold water when doing changes - in live bearers, this triggers breeding if the water is above 76 degrees - read an article on plecos once that said an increase in light and cold water promotes reproductive behaviour because they think it's spring....just a thought - any positive input here would be appreciated as I will be making the transformation to cichlids soon - in the meantime, I will do some research and see what I can dig up!
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Post by jonv on Sept 19, 2008 21:20:58 GMT -5
I can only repeat that I've seen but not really tracked, a large number of my overall spawns seem to have coincided with recent water changes, a couple times I've seen the males chase the females even during the change itself. Outwardly, without having any scientific documentation, I have to say there appears to be an extremely strong correlation to this John.
I just have to wonder though, that if a tank say got changes every 2-3 days, so nitrates never had a chance to even go over 20 ppm, would this have a slowing down impact on spawning frequencies. If it should show that it doesn't, then I have to assume that the new mineral addition to the water has to be the real key. If it does slow down, then I'm going to have to assume that it's more about nitrate levels suppressing the need or urge to spawn.
There are some x factors I could think of such as age, overall health, and conditioning. I'd have to assume that even with an extremely well maintained tank and healthy fish, that if they aren't being feed a good and proper diet, that's going to impact breeding just as much.
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Post by 8 in the Corner on Sept 20, 2008 14:15:46 GMT -5
Today I found my female Albino Protomelas Steveni holding yet again. I'll probably have produced now like close to 100 fry in about a month just from that 1 female. Keep an eye on her, Jon, allowing the males to force the females to breed right away after just spitting the fry from an earlier spawn can sometimes cause the females to starve to death from multiple spawns while holding the fry for extended periods. You might consider giving her a week with the eggs and then "stripping" her and keeping her in a "recovery tank" so she can get some good high protein food for a while before putting her back into the main tank to be harassed by the "ever-ready" males. I would hate to see you lose your beautiful female.
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Post by jonv on Sept 20, 2008 14:34:39 GMT -5
That was one of the first things I remember you telling me John. When I put a female in the 15 to let the fry go, I keep her there about a week in that tank, then I move them up to the 100 where there is no males that would go after them for a week or two. I'll have to scan back and find the date the TR female spit. What makes me really excited about this, is this female was one of my first spawns back in last year around December and now she's spawning herself. No cross breeding in this case. Her dad was a regular gene TR, and I sold out all the adult TR's since they kept breeding so much back in Feb of this year. I kept 1 Albino male, and he spawned with this female. Good mix of genes will have here.
I appreciate that point though. I can assure you, keeping females out of the main tank at least 2 weeks is something I've been doing since getting my first fish to spawn, thanks to your advice.
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Post by murdock6701 on Sept 20, 2008 15:09:22 GMT -5
great advice 8! stressing out females is not a good thing!I appreciate learning that today about them possibly starving due to carrying fry for prolongrd periods of time - am seeing you are a most positive addition to this group! thanks!
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