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Post by Carl on Apr 2, 2009 17:48:07 GMT -5
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Post by eve on Apr 2, 2009 17:49:40 GMT -5
awesome as always
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Post by Carl on Apr 3, 2009 10:29:44 GMT -5
awesome as always Thank you Eve I wish I could say I feel it is a really good article, but since this particular pathogen has little new research break throughs, I feel I do not have too much to offer the aquarist on how to deal with this problem other than some generic prevention methods. But I guess it does provide a good reality check, even if the outcome is rarely good Carl
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Post by goldenpuon on Apr 3, 2009 15:40:00 GMT -5
Very nice article. This article leaves me curious since I have never heard of Ichthyophonus (unless it is another name for whirling disease which I have heard many times)Though it is very well done, I have a few ideas for things you might want to add on to your article.
You said this disease is almost impossible to treat. I wonder how, like if it is immune to treatment or just hard to identify. Also, how it spreads (by fish to fish or some other way?) and also its lifecycle.
I'm not saying you have to do this. It's totally up to you and I know you're very busy and probably don't have time to add onto this. But if you do, this is just some friendly advice. No rush.
Thanks for posting the artilce by the way. I enjoyed reading it.
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Post by Carl on Apr 3, 2009 16:28:26 GMT -5
These are some good points Renee, and will likely take them into conderation.
BTW, whirling disease is one of those non-decript symptom diseases that is not truly a disease, rather a symptom of more than one cause, Ichthyophonus, bieng one of the major causes.
Ichthyophonus has been identified as a disease pathogen for quite some time, and research from Universities is ongoing since this disease can plague many fish farms or wild populations of salmon,
Carl
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Post by goldenpuon on Apr 3, 2009 18:49:08 GMT -5
Thanks Carl. Glad I could help. Thanks for clarifying about whirling disease and that rather it is a symtom, not a disease. Maybe I could research it sometime.
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Post by rusalka on Mar 20, 2015 13:00:45 GMT -5
I've been reading information on this disease in Russian forums. They mention some medications containing Ciprofloxacin and Phenoxytol (I'm not sure about the spelling). However the medication containing Ciprofloxacin is discontinued, and the second one nobody could find, they just found a reference in literature that in 1956 Van Dunin (not sure how to spell) treated early stages of Ichtyophonus with Phenoxytol and Para-Chlor-Phenoxytol. Carl, maybe you heard about something like this?
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Post by Carl on Mar 20, 2015 17:43:18 GMT -5
I am familiar with Ciprofloxacin, but not for the use to treat Ichthyophonus in fish.
My understanding is Ciprofloxacin is still made, but likely is not available outside of pharmacies or veterinary clinics.
I am not familiar with the use of Phenoxytol
Carl
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Post by rusalka on Mar 20, 2015 23:42:30 GMT -5
Ciprofloxacin active to (taken from human pharmaceutical website)
Gram-negative bacteria:
Escherichia coli, Salmonella spp., Shigella spp., Citrobacter spp., Klebsiella spp., Enterobacter spp., Proteus mirabilis, Proteus vulgaris, Serratia marcescens, Hafnia alvei, Edwardsiella tarda, Providencia spp., Morganella morganii, Vibrio spp., Yersinia spp., Haemophilus spp., Pseudomonas aeruginosa, Moraxella catarrhalis, Aeromonas spp., Pasteurella multocida, Plesiomonas shigelloides, Campylobacter jejuni, Neisseria spp.;
Gram-positive bacteria:
Staphylococcus spp. (Staphylococcus aureus, Staphylococcus haemolyticus, Staphylococcus hominis, Staphylococcus saprophyticus), Streptococcus spp. (Streptococcus pyogenes, Streptococcus agalactiae).
And also to Legionella pneumophila, Brucella spp., Chlamydia trachomatis, Listeria monocytogenes, Mycobacterium tuberculosis, Mycobacterium kansasii, Mycobacterium avium-intracellulare;
Does it look like it may treat Ichtyophonus? I only see Mycobacterium tuberculosis (which is also useful!)
I also read on the packaging of Russian discontinued fish medicine that it treats Aeromonas. It seems available in human pharmacies.
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Post by Carl on Mar 21, 2015 10:36:58 GMT -5
I would have my doubts that it would work since Ichthyophonus are considered members of the kingdom Protozoa in the recent Biological classifications (but are still discussed with fungi in some scientific texts). I do not believe that Ciprofloxacin has shown any activity to similar pathogens.
As for Aeromonas, my mentor had suggested Ciprofloxacin for Aeromonas many years ago, but being a medical Dr., he had access to it that I did not.
Back to Ichthyophonus, it certainly would not hurt to try, but as with other reasonably effective treatments for Ichthyophonus, it usually takes a cocktail and even then success is not very common once advanced to where it is noticed.
Carl
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Post by rusalka on Mar 24, 2015 17:21:15 GMT -5
What would you suggest as cocktail with Ciprofloxacin for Ichtyophonus or Aeromonas? I have no other option as to try it. Alternative would be just wait my fish dying one by one, before I can restart both tanks.
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Post by Carl on Mar 25, 2015 11:39:45 GMT -5
What would you suggest as cocktail with Ciprofloxacin for Ichtyophonus or Aeromonas? I have no other option as to try it. Alternative would be just wait my fish dying one by one, before I can restart both tanks. Do you suspect the fish have Ichthyophonus? If sometimes the best treatment is euthanasia and bleaching of an aquarium. Otherwise the only method I have been even somewhat effective with is stated in the article: "One very potent treatment “cocktail” (combination) is the combination of ParaGuard with Kanaplex and Nitrofurazone (Furan 2). Please note that this combination is a potent treatment and water parameters should be monitored carefully during this treatment (usually about 7-10 days). This should be used in addition to the before mentioned baths (with Methylene Blue or Potassium Permanganate) and water parameter corrections (if necessary)."Reference: www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2007/05/ichthyophonus-in-fish.htmlI cannot honestly recommend a treatment for this disease I have never used, this does not mean it cannot work, but it would be disingenuous for me to recommend this. Is there a problem obtaining these products? Regards; Carl
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Post by rusalka on Mar 26, 2015 13:27:52 GMT -5
Either Aeromonas or Ichtyophonus. We discussed it in the "Systemic disease treatment" topic.
I performed this treatment. The fish didn't respond other than the secondary fungal infection disappearance. And I keep seeing their state worsening.
If I understand right, the cocktail that you recommend includes both anti parasitic and anti bacterial medicines? This is how Protozoa should be treated?
Which part of the cocktail addresses internal organs infection? Would there be sense to mix something in the fish food?
Thanks!
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Post by Carl on Mar 26, 2015 18:09:05 GMT -5
If I understand right, the cocktail that you recommend includes both anti parasitic and anti bacterial medicines? This is how Protozoa should be treated? This is the best treatment I have found, but again even this is tough disease to treat, which is noted in my sources as well As per my Medications Articles, the Kanaplex and Methylene Blue will get internal. Yes, mixing Kanplex and Metronidazole into a food slurry might increase effectiveness Further Reference: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumMedication2.htmlwww.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumMedication3.htmlCarl
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Post by rusalka on Mar 27, 2015 0:52:49 GMT -5
Thank you Carl. I'm trying to understand the logics behind forming medication cocktails
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Post by Carl on Mar 27, 2015 11:04:28 GMT -5
Thank you Carl. I'm trying to understand the logics behind forming medication cocktails Sometimes a cocktail forms a synergistic combination where one medication by itself does nothing, but combined can be quite effective (although nothing is all that effective for this disease) A good example is for Columnaris where by Kanamycin and Nitrofurazone are not very effective (if at all) on their own, but combined forma a synergistic combination. Medication cocktails have long been used in difficult human treatments Example: aidsinfo.nih.gov/news/493/attacking-aids-with-a-cocktail-therapy-drug-combo-sends-deaths-plummetingCarl
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