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Post by Carl on Sept 18, 2008 0:34:54 GMT -5
Great point on this one Bill. That's actually both the plus and minus with the Africans. Rule one week, back of the line the next, however, if you want everyone to have a chance, not much choice but to change things up every week. It keeps balance but the powerful ones could lose their power. In a case of breeding what's best off then is just giving the male his own tank, and put in females for him if you want a certain male to be your breeder. I may do that I couldn't catch him tonight (didn't try too hard) but I may put him in my 16 and add a couple girls at atime. I will try to catch him anyways and move him just to see if his attitude changes. The plus with this is that this will make baths (if necessary) much easier to perform being that this tank should be much easier to catch a fish in. Also the fact that he is difficult to catch is a good sign that what I originally suspected (stress) may be the problem as a truely sick fish is usually easy to catch. Carl
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Post by jonv on Sept 18, 2008 0:50:55 GMT -5
I want to also gander at this, you don't see this often with Africans but on occaisons I have. Sometimes with some Africans like with many larger South Americans, if they happen to lose their place in a pecking order, some will go off to the corner and sulk. Looking at the shots posted, I'm not experienced as Carl and Bill, but I wouldn't suspect bloat looking at the body. Sometimes they can just chill out really. Conditioning is part of that. This could just be a case where he's taking more time watching his own back, just relaxing or maybe even just feels comfortable there. Hard to say if there is an issue or not. I think with my experience too with Meth Blue I can say even if he isn't sick a bath of that won't hurt him at all.
I don't think anyone can say you don't watch your tanks either Brenda. You certainly do that for sure.
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Post by eve on Sept 18, 2008 1:03:08 GMT -5
i'm sure i will be lynched for what i will say here, but anyway
i wouldn't medicate unless you know what you medicate a fish for usually, in my experience, the meds won't work if needed later on
judging from the pics, and knowing your parameters and everything else around it now, i'm to 90% positiv, that this is a sign of being bullied especially the hiding in the corner and not eating part
you're doing best, if you CAN, take him out and in a hospital tank don't remember if he is the only male in the tank but it's always best to keep 1 male to 2-4 females with africans if you have more males, you will always see issues even killing, one of the reason i got rid of my mbuna's
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Post by brenda on Sept 18, 2008 8:35:15 GMT -5
No one's going to lynch you Eve!!! LOL!!! That's what everyone is here for different opinions. I do have more males, he is the only lake victoria male I have though and he has 5 females. Not that that matters though. Thing is though why it still confuses me is I don't ever see him get bothered. I watch other ones get chased quite a bit but never him. Is it possibe that it only happens at night when I'm not watching?
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Post by brenda on Sept 18, 2008 8:38:15 GMT -5
I want to also gander at this, you don't see this often with Africans but on occaisons I have. Sometimes with some Africans like with many larger South Americans, if they happen to lose their place in a pecking order, some will go off to the corner and sulk. Looking at the shots posted, I'm not experienced as Carl and Bill, but I wouldn't suspect bloat looking at the body. Sometimes they can just chill out really. Conditioning is part of that. This could just be a case where he's taking more time watching his own back, just relaxing or maybe even just feels comfortable there. Hard to say if there is an issue or not. I think with my experience too with Meth Blue I can say even if he isn't sick a bath of that won't hurt him at all. I don't think anyone can say you don't watch your tanks either Brenda. You certainly do that for sure. Someone else I had mentioned this to had also said he could just be sulking/pouting so maybe that's it. I don't know I'm lost but he doesn't seem to be getting weaker or anything just not being as active and chasing his girls like he was. I would think if it were sickness that he would be getting worse after a week and a half but he's the same.
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Post by Carl on Sept 18, 2008 9:47:14 GMT -5
Someone else I had mentioned this to had also said he could just be sulking/pouting so maybe that's it. I don't know I'm lost but he doesn't seem to be getting weaker or anything just not being as active and chasing his girls like he was. I would think if it were sickness that he would be getting worse after a week and a half but he's the same. This is an important point Brenda!! This is again why my original thought is to isolate him to get him away from others is what my first coarse of action would be. As a precaution I would also perform the medicated bath. Eve; I you are not going to be lynched for your point about medications as often too many person will medicate first and then ask questions later and you are correct that most antibiotics can be rendered ineffective from random use when not really needed. However I do need to clarify that the use of a chemical treatment such as Methylene Blue does not fall under this classification and is best compared to the use on an antiseptic for prevention of something more serious as bacterium and parasites will not build an immunity as they can to antibiotics. Unfortunately though I have seen many over use antibiotics or use the incorrect ones then see bad side effects to these and this is how anecdotal stories get started such as the use of Penicillin which is effective for less than 1% of aquatic diseases or Maracyn (Erythromycin) which is effective for less than 10% of aquarium diseases yet is hard on filters bed and this leads to persons stating (after a filter bed wipeout) that ALL medications will; destroy a filter bed which is simply NOT true (as I point out in my Aquarium Medications article and Nitrogen Cycle Article). Malachite Green is another treatment that gets bad press from misuse. Carl
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Post by eve on Sept 18, 2008 13:38:48 GMT -5
lol, ok good well at least you understand my point and that not every medication ruins your good bacteria, i know that as well just wanted to bring my point of view into this anyway brenda- you don't have to actually see any of them bullying him not at all i can tell you that out of my experience, hence the q if you have more males in there i had that happen a couple of times, and unfortunately i DID HAVE to remove the males because of that the bullying happens when you don't look not visible i think it's just a vibe they send to each other over the water, of course all speculation but that's what it felt like happened mine would just hang out in the corner, not eat, just like yours as soon as i removed it to a hospital tank, where it was all by itself, it would color up, he happy and eat so my guess here is, that you might not have any other choice, but remove him
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Post by Carl on Sept 18, 2008 13:55:56 GMT -5
lol, ok good well at least you understand my point and that not every medication ruins your good bacteria, i know that as well just wanted to bring my point of view into this ;D I am glad you brought this up to, I hope you understand that I used this as an opportunity to "soap box" about medications, not to "lynch you" Carl
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Post by eve on Sept 18, 2008 14:05:35 GMT -5
lol, ok good well at least you understand my point and that not every medication ruins your good bacteria, i know that as well just wanted to bring my point of view into this ;D I am glad you brought this up to, I hope you understand that I used this as an opportunity to "soap box" about medications, not to "lynch you" Carl hey not a problem i didn't see myself lynched from you guys but i know what misinformation is out there, so use me any time to bring up points Eve
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Post by bikeguy33 on Sept 18, 2008 18:59:31 GMT -5
also....when you are watching your fish....they are watching you. they are more concerned for the "god like" figure that puts food in the sky than worrying about each other.....NOW tho....you turn your back and it can be ww3.
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Post by eve on Sept 18, 2008 19:01:29 GMT -5
also....when you are watching your fish....they are watching you. they are more concerned for the "god like" figure that puts food in the sky than worrying about each other.....NOW tho....you turn your back and it can be ww3. you really made me laugh on this one, good thing i wasn't just drinking my coffee
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Post by jonv on Sept 18, 2008 19:20:13 GMT -5
;D Yeah that's a good one. You know I was watching my 100 gallon more closely. I got rid of about 25 of those hybridize peacocks yesterday. I can see all the Tilapia more easy now. That tank with all those juvies and Tilapia though, it seems as though they are always starving. Just walk over to watch them, they come from all corners of the tank to swarm the front. I'd like to think it's because they like me LOL I doubt that though. I have to say in all this time, I've never had a tank of Africans that ALWAYS acted like they've never seen food in their life, even if you just fed them 10 minutes before.
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Post by brenda on Sept 18, 2008 20:58:12 GMT -5
also....when you are watching your fish....they are watching you. they are more concerned for the "god like" figure that puts food in the sky than worrying about each other.....NOW tho....you turn your back and it can be ww3. LMAO!!! You are too funny...but you're probably right.
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Post by brenda on Sept 19, 2008 10:35:10 GMT -5
Well, last night I noticed whiteish stringy pooh coming from my male flameback...also noticed it on 1 of the females. Does this possibly mean parasites? Should I treat my whole tank for parsites if this is the case?
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Post by Carl on Sept 19, 2008 11:01:41 GMT -5
Well, last night I noticed whiteish stringy pooh coming from my male flameback...also noticed it on 1 of the females. Does this possibly mean parasites? Should I treat my whole tank for parsites if this is the case? Unfortunately this has been a common indicator for parasites. I would not treat the main tank for now if you have removed the Flameback since you take very good care of your display aquarium, I think your chances of this spreading are low. I would perform the baths if you have not already and then feed the medicated Parasite Food IF he will eat it along with the in tank parasite medication or Metronidazole. One other suggestion is to soak his regular food in a small amount of Metronidazole for about 10-15 minutes and then see if he will eat this. Carl
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Post by jonv on Sept 19, 2008 12:58:19 GMT -5
I'm keeping that in mind in case I see anything like this. Threads like this are almost case studies in themselves though not completely in depth. My wonder here is as soon as I see parasites, I start automatically thinking copper sulfate. Is copper sulfate like a universal parasite treatment or do you have to hold back and narrow down what you are treating for first?
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Post by goldenpuon on Sept 19, 2008 16:56:47 GMT -5
This is an indicater or parasites but does not always mean something is a miss. I have this happen every so often in healthy fish. It can also be caused by liver problems or be caused particially by what you are feeding. (not rthat what you are feeding is bad) It may happen every so often and you can be fine, if it's regular, then it could be something to worry about.
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Post by brenda on Sept 19, 2008 19:11:25 GMT -5
Well, I caught him tonight and put him in the 16 gallon...I am treating with Jungle Labs Parasite clear. Does anyone know that if this were to end up being bloat if it would possibly treat that too? I know bloat most of the time is fatal but if it is bloat will this give him some sort of chance?
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Post by goldenpuon on Sept 19, 2008 21:21:28 GMT -5
Brenda, are you sure that it is bloat? Think about all the fish's symtoms and list them if you have to see if they match the disease description to see if it truly is bloat. I have accidently killed fish numerous times by overmedicating. Now I make absoluetly sure. Like if I see a torn fin, I wait to see if it gets worse over a span of up to a week and if not, I don't treat and let the fish heal. But as for a fast spreading disease like ich, if i suspect a fish has it, I chceck for white spots once or twice a day and carefully watch the fish's behavior. If no white spots show up or it truns out the white spots are just pigmenation, I stop my investigation or watch teh fish a little more closely than usual and look closely at the fish every week or so to see if it's worse.
If you're getting white waste, it may be internal parasites but then again if your fish is not eating and seems bloated, it may also be constipation. Morale of the story, don't treatment unless you are sure of what disease a fish has, otherwise its' like running around in the dark.
A picture would aslo be helpful. Sorry if I came off as overly harsh. I just don't want you maing the same mistakes I did when I first started keeping fish and paying the price!
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Post by jonv on Sept 19, 2008 21:26:32 GMT -5
Renee, scroll back in this thread to page 1, there are some. I don't see a clear cut case of bloat really in the pics, but I think I've seen it posted in other places, that use of peas are a good way to clear out bloat or any blockages. I'm not sure how accurate that is though.
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