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Post by brenda on Sept 17, 2008 11:51:59 GMT -5
I am wondering if my Kyoga flameback could possibly have this. (Carl, I looked for an article but didn't see one, so if there is one ...sorry) He has not been acting right for the last week and a half or so. He hangs in the upper back corner at the surface and when I feed he gets excited but does not eat...he puts food in his mouth and then spits it back out. I read the early signs of bloat and he fits this to a T. Is he doomed or what can I do to try and save him? My females are also acting a little strange, I will pay more attention to them tonight.
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Post by Carl on Sept 17, 2008 12:30:35 GMT -5
I am wondering if my Kyoga flameback could possibly have this. (Carl, I looked for an article but didn't see one, so if there is one ...sorry) He has not been acting right for the last week and a half or so. He hangs in the upper back corner at the surface and when I feed he gets excited but does not eat...he puts food in his mouth and then spits it back out. I read the early signs of bloat and he fits this to a T. Is he doomed or what can I do to try and save him? My females are also acting a little strange, I will pay more attention to them tonight. No I do not have a specific article dealing with this (I do with Dropsy, Aeromonas as there are similarities) Can you provide a picture? Have these fish been stressed by others? Stress can cause these reactions, although not bloat specifically as per my observations. Are their bellies at all distended? Are their scales protruding? Do you soak your dry fish food in water for a few minutes prior to feeding? Although not a necessity with many fish (important with goldfish and Bettas), it is still a good practice to be and one I have followed for many years to prevent intestinal gas that can result in internal Aeromonas infections. I would start with isolation if at all possible to rule out fish inducced stress. A medicated bath using Methylene Blue and salts would be the next step. As for in tank medications, I would consider Metronidazole as a first step (although I have seen SOME success with Usnea, which is still an unproven treatment, but it has a lot of possiblities IMO) Here is amy Dropsy Article: Aquarium Answers; DropsyAeromonas Article: Aeromonas Bacterial InfectionsCarl
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Post by brenda on Sept 17, 2008 12:42:39 GMT -5
I will get pics later when I get home.
I have not noticed them being harassed but will not rule it out.
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Post by eve on Sept 17, 2008 12:50:01 GMT -5
how many times a day and what do you feed them ?
what are your parameters in the tank?
ammonia and nitrAte i'm interested in most if you can the pH
also how long has this tank been setup?
and what other fish are in that tank?
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Post by brenda on Sept 17, 2008 13:16:52 GMT -5
Tank has been setup for about 1 year.
Ammonia, nitrIte are always 0 nitrAtes sit at 10-20 Ph is 8.2
I feed twice a day usually spirulina flakes in the morning at night I rotate different frozen foods..spirulina brine shrimp, plankton, glassworms or I feed HBH supersoft krill pellets.
Other fish in the tank are malawai peacocks and some lake tanganyika species.
At the time his symptoms first started all fish had been in it for at least a month. Last week traded a bunch of fish thinking maybe my lad was causing this problem especially since he tried to spawn with one of the Kyoga females. I got rid of the lab thinking he was the problem, but he obviously wasn't. I still don't see anyone pick on him and there are new fish in there that I got when I traded the others in.
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Post by brenda on Sept 17, 2008 13:23:27 GMT -5
Oh, don't know if it matters but thought I would add...
Tank is a 90 gallon, I run 2 AC 110's and a hydro pro 5 sponge filter for about 1400 GPH filtration. I also have a 15watt UV sterilizer. I do water changes AT LEAST once a week but usually twice.
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Post by Carl on Sept 17, 2008 13:29:55 GMT -5
Oh, don't know if it matters but thought I would add... Tank is a 90 gallon, I run 2 AC 110's and a hydro pro 5 sponge filter for about 1400 GPH filtration. I also have a 15watt UV sterilizer. I do water changes AT LEAST once a week but usually twice. Your feeding, water parameters, and system make an Aeromonas infection Highly unlikely. This all all the more makes this problem more of a mystery. Do you see any bloat or injuries? These symptoms seem to indicate a fish that is harrassed or scared, but you have not noticed this, which leaves me scratching my head. I would still try my original suggestion, and that is isolation and a medicated bath and go from there. Carl
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Post by brenda on Sept 17, 2008 13:39:44 GMT -5
Well and like I said...this is a sudden change for him. He ruled the tank and was trying to spawn for the first month I had him. At that time the fish were all the same. Now if I had added new fish and then he started acting this way I would say harassment would be the cause but this started before new fish were added. I think I am going to move him to either my 10 or 16 gallon and also do the bath like you recommend. I will take pics tonight so you can see if you see anything...I don't but maybe I'm looking for something obvious.
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Post by Carl on Sept 17, 2008 14:36:32 GMT -5
Well and like I said...this is a sudden change for him. He ruled the tank and was trying to spawn for the first month I had him. At that time the fish were all the same. Now if I had added new fish and then he started acting this way I would say harassment would be the cause but this started before new fish were added. I think I am going to move him to either my 10 or 16 gallon and also do the bath like you recommend. I will take pics tonight so you can see if you see anything...I don't but maybe I'm looking for something obvious. Sorry I can not give you something more definitive, but I rather not misguide when I am unsure. One other thought though is an internal parasite, as I have observed this in many occasions in healthy tanks where the fish were strong, but suddenly take a down turn about 2-8 weeks after introduction. Internal Flukes, or nematodes can cause these syptoms as well and can fit the pattern you describe. As noted ealier, Metronidazole (along with isolation/baths) can help, Other stronger medication possiblities include: Clout (which is very strong, but more effective for external parasites). Another effective medication is Jungle Parasite Clear (the best is the Jungle Anti Parasite food, but the fish needs to eat for this to be of any use) Carl
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Post by brenda on Sept 17, 2008 14:54:41 GMT -5
Are there any meds that won't kill my beneficial bacteria?
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Post by Carl on Sept 17, 2008 15:28:45 GMT -5
Are there any meds that won't kill my beneficial bacteria? Admittedly Metronidazole can be hard on nitrifying bacteria due to is having gram positive characteristics, however I have not had too much problem with this medication when used properly in a healthy tank and with products such as Prime. Clout is not that hard on nitrifying bacteria but can be hard on silver fish such as Silver Dollars. In a hospital tank this is not something I orry too much about as I often will import an aged filter each time I begin treatment, or at least perform larger water changes. Carl
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Post by brenda on Sept 17, 2008 18:00:33 GMT -5
Ok, I couldn't find any methylin blue...I will have to get some from you to have on hand. I did get the anti-parasite food and the parasite clear. Would it hurt to feed the food to all the fish in my big tank? Will the food harm my bacteria in any way? I will move the male to my 16 gallon and treat him with the tabs if he won't eat the food.
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Post by Carl on Sept 17, 2008 18:08:39 GMT -5
Ok, I couldn't find any methylin blue...I will have to get some from you to have on hand. I did get the anti-parasite food and the parasite clear. Would it hurt to feed the food to all the fish in my big tank? Will the food harm my bacteria in any way? I will move the male to my 16 gallon and treat him with the tabs if he won't eat the food. This food will not harm others that may eat, in fact if there is a parasite, especially intestinal it will help to prevent it from passing as feces is how they spread (assuming this is the problem that is). As to bacteria, ANY medicated food is a better "delivery system" for meds as for the fish and safetly of nitrifying bacteria (although many effective aquarium meds do not have strong effect on nitrifying bacteria with the exception of Erythromycin, and some Tetracycline and Penicllin drugs which honestly have limited effectiveness in most aquatic diseases anyway). Carl
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Post by brenda on Sept 17, 2008 18:16:12 GMT -5
Here are some pics...don't know if they will show you anything or not. His color is not as brilliant as it was but he still comes to greet me if I stand in front of the tank. Do you think I should also get the anti bacterial food?
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Post by Carl on Sept 17, 2008 18:23:59 GMT -5
I do not see any bloat, although as you noted that does not mean this is not the beginning. However based on your awesome care and excllent filtration system/water parameters, I REALLY DOUBT your fish would develope any kind of bloat as this usually is brought on by pathogens such as Aeromonas which thive in poorly filtered water and generally poor conditions.
As to antibacterial food, such as the Neomycin which is exellent to use for intestinal problems, this is good to have on hand, however I have my doubts that this is the problem again based on your care, filters, feeding, etc. So I probably would not use it for now.
Carl
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Post by bikeguy33 on Sept 17, 2008 19:15:08 GMT -5
also....too add to what carl said....if this isnt a disease, it could be a change in attitude of the fish. he ruled the roost when you got him....but by something as simple as moving rocks and ornemants, the alpha male can quickly change hands....or in this case fins. any change inside the tank can mean a new alpha male....
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Post by brenda on Sept 17, 2008 20:16:58 GMT -5
Well I have changed decor...to me it didn't seem much different but maybe to them it was. I just did a water change and totally redid the decor a lot different so I'll see if that changes something. I am still going to see if they will eat the medicated food because I figure it shouldn't hurt them any. We'll see what happens.
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Post by Carl on Sept 17, 2008 20:27:29 GMT -5
Well I have changed decor...to me it didn't seem much different but maybe to them it was. I just did a water change and totally redid the decor a lot different so I'll see if that changes something. I am still going to see if they will eat the medicated food because I figure it shouldn't hurt them any. We'll see what happens. Anything is worth a shot, and bikeguy makes a good point as well. Anyway, good luck and keep us posted. I am no sure I will be on again tonight as I have Mr. Mom duties as the kid's school. Carl
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Post by jonv on Sept 17, 2008 20:33:50 GMT -5
Great point on this one Bill. That's actually both the plus and minus with the Africans. Rule one week, back of the line the next, however, if you want everyone to have a chance, not much choice but to change things up every week. It keeps balance but the powerful ones could lose their power. In a case of breeding what's best off then is just giving the male his own tank, and put in females for him if you want a certain male to be your breeder.
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Post by brenda on Sept 17, 2008 20:56:54 GMT -5
Great point on this one Bill. That's actually both the plus and minus with the Africans. Rule one week, back of the line the next, however, if you want everyone to have a chance, not much choice but to change things up every week. It keeps balance but the powerful ones could lose their power. In a case of breeding what's best off then is just giving the male his own tank, and put in females for him if you want a certain male to be your breeder. I may do that I couldn't catch him tonight (didn't try too hard) but I may put him in my 16 and add a couple girls at atime. I will try to catch him anyways and move him just to see if his attitude changes.
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