Low Nitrite->Nitrate Bacteria

[fishfever]

Tank Size: 26g
Age of the tank: 6 weeks
pH: 7.0
Ammonia: 0
NitrAtes: moderate
nitrites: high
Temperature: 86 deg F
Fish in your tanks: no
Fish:

none, using ammonia to cycle

Question/Problem:

Hello, I'm new to this forum and the hobby but it looks like it has a lot to offer. I'm currently trying to upgrade to a new 26g bow front aquarium from a fully cycled 10g rectangular aquarium. I'm using the fishless method with pure diluted ammonia (was hard to find but Ace Hardware had it). I used squeezings from my cycled 10g filter/sponge prefilter to try to get the 26g tank going faster. I have the heater set for 86 deg F and have both HOB filters set for a larger than normal drop (hopefully to produce more oxygen). I dechlorinated the tank water and used a pH buffer to get our acidic tap water to a balanced condition.

My problem in the new tank is that I have plenty of bacteria that converts ammonia->nitrite, but not enough that does nitrite->nitrate conversion. I can seemingly put as much ammonia in the tank as I like (I've tried as much as 100 drops in consecutive days which makes the ammonia readings go off the chart) and in 24 hours there is no trace of any ammonia. The nitrite level is consistently off the scale (darker red than the highest danger reading on a strip test) or if I use the test tube method it actually can turn green (purple is the highest shown on the chart with blue being zero). This has been going on for many weeks. I have cut way back on the ammonia so as not to introduce new nitrites so the nitrite->nitrate bacteria can catch up. I even went 3 days without adding any ammonia but was afraid to go too long without adding any because I don't want to lose the ammonia->nitrite bacteria. I am still seeing high nitrite levels. I am seeing low to moderate nitrate levels so there is some nitrite->nitrate converting bacteria, but just not enough. I have also recently started adding some "bacterial enhancement" products like Stability by SeaChem since I had some on hand although it seems doubtful this would help much after reading about these products.

I don't know what else to try. It seems that 3-4 weeks (took about 2 weeks to get the ammonia->nitrite bacteria up) should be more than enough time to get the nitrite->nitrate bacteria colonies up to the levels needed to keep up. I am thinking of just adding the fish when the ammonia levels are at 0 (with a water change to drop the nitrite/nitrate levels) and then just use Prime and partial water changes every two days (Prime lasts up to 48 hours) to make the nitrite non-toxic. This is how I was able to get the 10g tank cycled but it was a royal pain! The other thought I had was to just stop adding ammonia completely and wait to see if the nitrites would go to zero. Since I seem to have more than enough of the ammonia->nitrite bacteria, losing some of that shouldn't be that bad.

Sorry to ramble on and on - hopefully there is someone here with an idea of what is happening!

[eve]

to me it sounds like you completely stalled your cycling process

i would stop the ammonia, until your nitrites are at 4ppm or lower
here is a great article to read up on

Nitrogen Aquarium Cylcing

especially since you have put in already established material as well as you're using bacteria fluids

don't add anything for a few days and see where your parameters go

i'm sure others will give you some input as well, but that's what i would do at the moment

[Carl]

I agree 100% with Eve, you likely have stalled out your cycling process, and I would discontinue the ammonia for now (more may be needed so as to not starve the ammonia oxidizing bacteria)

Often the nitrite converting bacteria (Nitrobacter and Nitrospina) do not "appear" in a "timely" manner as the ammonia converting bacteria (Nitrosomonas and Nitrospira are generally accepted as the nitrite converters).
This is one reason I still prefer the seasoned media method of "kick starting" the nitrogen cycle. Admittedly the pure ammonia method is probably the safest for not introducing pathogens or other undesirables, but this method does not insure all bacteria will appear in a manner condusive to timely aquarium cycling.

BTW, squeezing a filter out is a poor method for adding beneficial bacteria at best, as these Autotrophic bacteria needed for this process cling to the filter media and gravel with a glue like substance and simple squeezings will not dislodge too much bacteria, so your best bet is to add the seasoned media/gravel itself, or simply allow more time for the ammonia method to work, which can take over 6 weeks.

As well most cycling products such as Stability (which is one of the better IMO) only add Heterotrophic Bacteria which are only a temporary solution and do not truly complete your cycling process.

As Eve also pointed out, please read this article for more expanded information on this subject:
Aquarium Nitrogen Cycle

Carl

[fishfever]

Eve & Carl,

Thanks for both your replies. I really appreciate your expert opinions. One thing I just did was to swap the sponge prefilter for the HOB from the established 10g aquarium. I just realized they were the same one so this should work alot better than the squeezing method for the reason Carl mentioned.

I agree that I need to stop adding ammonia for the time being (so no new nitrite is being created) to see what the nitrite levels are doing. I think the ammonia->nitrite bacteria can survive for a bit with just water and oxygen. Once I determine a definite trend (hopefully down) in the nitrite levels I can gradually add small amounts of ammonia to keep the ammonia->nitrite bacteria going.

I'll report back when I see some progress so hopefully someone else can learn from this.

[Carl]

Mar 16, 2009 19:11:10 GMT -5 fishfever said:

Eve & Carl,

Thanks for both your replies. I really appreciate your expert opinions. One thing I just did was to swap the sponge prefilter for the HOB from the established 10g aquarium. I just realized they were the same one so this should work alot better than the squeezing method for the reason Carl mentioned.

I agree that I need to stop adding ammonia for the time being (so no new nitrite is being created) to see what the nitrite levels are doing. I think the ammonia->nitrite bacteria can survive for a bit with just water and oxygen. Once I determine a definite trend (hopefully down) in the nitrite levels I can gradually add small amounts of ammonia to keep the ammonia->nitrite bacteria going.

I'll report back when I see some progress so hopefully someone else can learn from this.

I think you are making a good and logical decision here.
Sometimes allowing more time for this method to work is all it takes as well.

Carl

[eve]

I think you're doing the right thing as well
just hope you don't have to start over, good luck

[fishfever]

I'm reporting back after *finally* getting the nitrites to go to 0. Interestingly the nitrates are not very high either; I figured they would be sky high without water changes. It took a full 10 days after last adding ammonia to the tank. A few things I did in the first few days after stopping the daily ammonia dose was to swap the sponge prefilter with the established 10g tank and also moved the main filter cartridge to this tank (in front of the 26g HOB filter and contacting the 26g cartridge) for a few days. I continued to add Stability to the tank every day until I ran out although I kind of doubt this was that helpful.

If the tank is truly cycled at this point it took about 7-8 weeks total. But I didn't do a good media exchange with the cycled tank early on so it probably would have been alot faster had I thought of this.

I added 40 drops of pure diluted ammonia today to get the tank reading up to about 2ppm (mg/L). In a day or so I expect the ammonia level to drop to 0 with a possible small spike in the nitrite level (or it may remain low if the bacteria can process it fast enough). If the nitrate level also remains very low I'll probably skip the water change and start conditioning (some aquarium salt and two wonder shells to help boost our very soft water) before adding the fish.

[Carl]

7-8 weeks is not all that unusual for the pure ammonia method.

As for your low nitrates without a water change, this could be a few factors (or combinations there of):

*Low amounts of ammonia as compared to eventual nitrates generated (if this makes sense)

*Anaerobic bacteria present that are converting to Nitrogen gas

*Possible Heterotrophs in the Stability that are also converting to pure nitrogen gas (a guess here though, as I do not know for sure these are present in this product as I do not have the data to support this).

Carl