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Post by brenda on Nov 30, 2008 22:28:21 GMT -5
I am so glad to hear that Jon!!! It is great that they are already laying eggs fertilized or not...You haven't had them for even a couple weeks yet!!! I'm so glad that male is doing so well, especially after all he went thru!!
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Post by jonv on Nov 30, 2008 22:35:24 GMT -5
Thanks Brenda. I haven't had an egg laying species breed for me before either but this is exciting. That little female is chasing anyone and everyone right out of there. I kind of feel bad for her as her stress levels must be off the scale with all the fish in there, but I supposed they have evolved in ways to cope with that.
I called Carl because it's hard to say about this. I have heard so many stories about infertile eggs or unfertilized eggs. It worries me as the male doesn't seem to recognize or spend any time with that female, but rather the other one. I have to assume though he did fertilize those eggs. Another thing I'm a bit worried about is that I heard this species spawns in the 1000's, literally. I only see maybe 1/10th of that maybe. Not sure what to make of that but just seeing the eggs I think is a good sign. I am going to avoid doing the gravel cleaning for a bit to see what happens. Not sure on the incubation period.
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Post by Carl on Nov 30, 2008 22:43:32 GMT -5
...Carl, what is your first picture of? I ahve no clue what it is. I am not sure exactly, just that it is some insect's ovipositer (or just some bug mooning the camera ) Congrats on your eggs Jon, I concur with what Brenda stated that whether or not the eggs are fertile, I think this is a good sign to have eggs this soon. Not much more I can add beyond our phone conversation. Carl
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Post by jonv on Feb 11, 2009 20:48:23 GMT -5
Will have to put this thread into the African section because this isn't strictly just breeding, but general information. While I am speaking of breeding in this aspect, if other information regarding Madagascars in general comes up, it would be good to post it in here. Now what I just found tonight, while I scanned over Dave's fish I noticed a species paretroplus maculatus and decided to look in on this. Apparently this is a relative of the species I've sought for quite some time now, Paretroplus Menarambo, and these species shouldn't be housed together according to the site I'll list. But the big nugget I'm chewing on now and feel this might be a beautiful question for Dr. Loiselle, is here: "...It was their first time and our experience has taught us that normally there would be no more eggs next morning. It is important to think of the parents, too, when removing the eggs. The male may hold the female responsible for the loss of the brood and become too aggressive, so we decided to leave the eggs with them for the rest of the day and remove them just before the lights were scheduled to go off." This in particular seems to explain something to me. I think this accounts for what happend with the Pytchochromis Oligocanthus when the fry got eaten, and how he reacted to the females. In my opinion, this is or is very close to a fish that bonds, and if there is fry loss, I wonder if this effects future spawnings. I have seen threads in some forums talking about having a spawn and then not having another for quite some time, after fry didn't make it. This is starting to concern me a bit. The male is starting to respond a bit better, but going back to showing lack of interest in the females. If I don't get any results out of these guys by the summer, I may consider putting them up in an auction or trading out for a different species. www.malawicichlidhomepage.com/aquainfo/spawning_menarambo.html
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Post by brenda on Feb 13, 2009 10:18:59 GMT -5
Hmmm interesting Jon...Maybe, there is something to that.
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Post by brenda on Feb 14, 2009 11:57:22 GMT -5
Jon, I had posted this on HCCC awhile back trying to help find you info...Someone juste recently posted again so just thought I'd share. Not sure if there is anything new here or not. The guy seems to keep a lot of the madagascar species. www.hillcountrycichlidclub.com/hcccBB/viewtopic.php?t=6540
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Post by jonv on Feb 14, 2009 17:44:00 GMT -5
Thanks Brenda, it doesn't quite go into the aspect I was hoping, but it's good for people to see that there are varients of this species. Now I know when I see them listed as Nossibeensis, that it is in reality, Pytchochromis Oligocanthus is the main species though. I'm trying to understand the relationship between males and females in regards to substrate spawning and just how different it is compared to the mouthbrooders. Should there be a spawn loss with the egg layers, does this tend to trigger the male going crazy or not. Still to now, the male has gone back to showing little to no interest in the females.
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Post by barbara on Apr 4, 2009 21:49:42 GMT -5
I've recently developed an interest in the cichlids from Madagascar. I got a pair a couple of weeks ago...under the name Paratilapia sp. "Marolambo" These pictures were taken when I first got them, and they were a little beat up. Doing much better now, and I'll try to get some better pictures soon. Today I bought some very small Ptychochromis grandidieri, that are too small to get pictures of at this point. They are terrified in a 55 gallon, and trying to hide. They aren't much to see, but I'm sure that won't last long. Looks like I'm lucking into some juvenile Paretroplus maculates as well, those I'll get picture of for sure. I won't stop doing Victorians, but Walt and I also like big showy fish, and this ought to be an interesting experiment. I have a local breeder that wants to spread the fish, and is also an ACA member, so he's aware of my vision for my Vics. I'm pretty excited about these.
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Post by jonv on Apr 4, 2009 22:45:57 GMT -5
It looks like you have a male/female pair of Paratilapia Polleni "large spots" Barb. This is a group I have 7 of. These guys are fairly to highly aggressive among their own, if in a group, but if you just have a pair, and is male/female like I suspect, they shouldn't be all that aggressive.
Recently, within the last month, I've seen some threads on nycichlids, and eastcoastcichlids where there were some spawns of this species. They are a substrate spawner, and my advice after watching everything from Pytchochromis Oligocanthus, with Mbuna and Fulu in the same tank, if they spawn, they will exert extreme stress on substrate dwelling tank mates. The pair basically took the middle of the tank, pinning the fulu on one side, and the Mbuna on the other. If you see pit construction going on, or if you observe the one with lesser spots on it (I suspect female) with the Ovipositor down, they should spawn within 5-7 days.
It's not hard to spot a spawn either. The pair will be hovering over a specific area for most all of the time, occasionally they should fan the eggs. Now I haven't gotten this species to spawn, maybe all 7 are the same sex, but Dr. Loiselle pointed out to me, at the 4-5 inch size range, they could spawn. I also want to share with you from what I've read in the other two sites, the eggs themselves, might not stay in one spot. As I understood the posts Barb, the pair might move the eggs in a group around, and as well, a couple posts indicated, this species is very much a species that ends up consuming eggs, so if you do want to spawn these, and you spot eggs laid, I'd move the eggs to an incubation tank.
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Post by jonv on Apr 4, 2009 22:49:25 GMT -5
The one getting the brownish looking spot along the nose, I'm almost positive, that is a male.
Grandidieri, I've heard of them, but I haven't encountered anyone that actually has these yet. They seem to be getting more and more popular. They are likely to be highly threatend too Barb, but I'm sure you'd know about this. When I did speak with Dr. Loiselle last time, he did indicate, there are some changes occuring in Madagascar, and the status listings should be updated. As I took his comments, I felt it to mean there has been improvements in wild stock.
I haven't seen the Paratrolopeus species you listed, but I also believe most if not all the Paratrolpeus species are in serious danger. I'm looking myself to find the money to acquire the Menarambo's myself. They have what I think a very unusual look, almost that of a SW Tang. They also carry quite a hefty price tag for adults too.
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Post by barbara on Apr 5, 2009 0:39:50 GMT -5
Jon, the pair of Paratilapia I got are a proven pair. They have spawned before. I was told that eventually the male will kill the female, and our best course of action is to heavily plant the tank, to give her places to be out of sight, and to hope for spawns early. That they breed better at young ages, and as they get older, the male becomes more abusive. Eventually they will have to be separated.
The Grandidieri, Dave's has some small specimens. That's where I got mine, and they were pretty darn cheap. He and I were discussing the Malagasy cichlids today, and he said that he keeps them for a long time, because no one seems interested in them.
I was talking with someone yesterday that knows quite a bit about these species, and he said that for the menarambos, you need a huge tank, and quite a few of them to temper the aggression. He suggested a 180 as a minimum, but said bigger is better. He also suggested that I not try for those at this point, and that I might be able to get some Paretroplus kieneri here soon. Those are just too cute, and I definitely want some, if they become available.
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Post by Carl on Apr 7, 2009 9:30:06 GMT -5
How big is the pair now?
Does having a larger tank help at least extend the time the pair can be kept safely together?
Carl
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Post by barbara on Apr 7, 2009 9:55:33 GMT -5
Carl, my pair is about 6 inches. From what I gather, the male will get much larger than the female. They are about the same size right now.
I don't think a larger tank will help. I don't know what will help, but as they get bigger, I will definitely watch for that. I am considering moving them into my 90 gallon, but the footprint is no larger than what they are in now. It's just taller, and I don't know if that will help.
Interesting observation, I thought. Doing water changes this week, and the male hid from the python, the female didn't hide, but started losing all of her pretty black, faded to a brown/tan color. When I started to refill the tank, both came out of hiding, and went just as jet black as I've ever seen. Obviously, they like clean water, and liked having it come into their tank. They can change their coloring so fast, like Vics do when coloring up or down.
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Post by jonv on Apr 7, 2009 12:48:55 GMT -5
Out of my 7 Barb, I mentioned to you last night, I did lose one of my larger males last night. I caught it too late, but looks like he got roughed up. So now I'm left with 6. A few weeks ago I moved what I felt was a male and female to the 75. They aren't quite as big as your pair, but just a bit under, probably at the 4-5 inch size range. What I noticed about them in the 75 is a bit odd too. They seem quite timid just as you noted with yours. The stock in the 75, the most aggressive fish that would be in there would be the Strawberry and Eureka Red Peacocks, but they spend most of their time looking each other up and down, yet the male Polleni will sit inside the stump with the Clown Loaches. I can't figure that one out.
I did pick up on how what I think are females are not quite nearly as black as the ones that appear to be male. I am not sure if that is to be expected or not, but I am also figuring that males have quite a few more spots on them as well. I think I am going to end up with 3 even pairs based on what I see by colorings. I see two of the more darker ones starting to get that brownish look along the bridge of the nose area.
I'm currently acclimating Pytochromis "Hippo Point" Salmons I just picked up, appears to be 2 male and 3 female. I'll hold them in the 180 for the time being.
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Post by barbara on Apr 7, 2009 13:20:16 GMT -5
I'm finding them odd. They can be timid, but now they are learning when the tank light comes on, food folows. I've been having problems with feeding, and I could slap myself for this. The food I am feeding was too small! I've since picked up some 3mm NLS, and they eat with gusto now!
Your P. Salmons might be intimidated by other tank mates. I've found them to be rather shy. Just keep a good eye on them.
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Post by Carl on Apr 7, 2009 13:34:46 GMT -5
Carl, my pair is about 6 inches. From what I gather, the male will get much larger than the female. They are about the same size right now. I don't think a larger tank will help. I don't know what will help, but as they get bigger, I will definitely watch for that. I am considering moving them into my 90 gallon, but the footprint is no larger than what they are in now. It's just taller, and I don't know if that will help. Interesting observation, I thought. Doing water changes this week, and the male hid from the python, the female didn't hide, but started losing all of her pretty black, faded to a brown/tan color. When I started to refill the tank, both came out of hiding, and went just as jet black as I've ever seen. Obviously, they like clean water, and liked having it come into their tank. They can change their coloring so fast, like Vics do when coloring up or down. Thanks, I am here to learn on this thread Your observation about the water change is interesting as well, although I am not surpised either since clean water improves so many aspects of aquarium chemistry, such as providing more positively charged mineral ions. Carl
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Post by barbara on Apr 7, 2009 13:42:07 GMT -5
Thanks Carl. I know most of my fish really like water changes, and I try to keep up on them for that reason. I had just never seen this type of reaction before in any of the fish that I have kept...not like this. I expected them to enjoy fresh water, but the fear reaction to the python taking water out, and the amazing coloration change to the water being added was just such a drastic difference. My husband and I both were just shocked at the reaction to the same piece of equipment being used in different ways, almost like they understood what it was doing. Weird.
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Post by jonv on Apr 7, 2009 14:26:52 GMT -5
I got my Polleni almost a year ago now Barb, and after a few months, they REALLY fought amongst themselves with good vigor, but didn't really bother anyone else. It took about 4-5 months before they started to darken, but when they did, what I noticed was, the black in them didn't stay 100% of the time until another 3-4 months. Still a few of the smaller ones are just like you said, lighter in color, smaller and have less spots, so I'm figuring these to be female.
Oh yeah those Salmon's actually the bigger male, what I am thinking is a nice full grown one, he decided he wasn't taking any chit from anyone. He went in, tangled with the male Kenyi's then a female Kenyi, and after that, proceeded to take on the dominant male Flavus before chilling out LOL. I was already like damn, this is one wild male! They seem to be settling in ok, so far, but I'll watch as you said. I find that the Tilapia Bythobates from Mozambique actually have a very similar look, and you really can only tell the difference by two things. One is females are very dark, and the nose area on a Salmon is more elongated then a Bythobate.
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Post by barbara on Apr 8, 2009 7:00:48 GMT -5
Jon, on the Paratilapia, I have no idea if that is an indicator. My female tends to stay just as jet black as the male. The way I can tell them apart, honestly, is that they have fought, and the male has a notch out of his tail. The female has healed up nicely, but the male still has this battle wound, and it may never heal correctly. I really love these fish, and I hope I can get them to spawn for me.
On the Salmon, that surprises me. They tend to be wimpy fish. Mine are, and don't do well with tank mates. It's taken them months to spawn, and I have my first holding female now. I keep mine, a group of 7, in a 55 gallon species tank. I'd like to have more, but they are difficult to find here right now.
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Post by jonv on Apr 8, 2009 7:43:00 GMT -5
On the Polleni, as you did say though, the males really seem to be larger, and they get a small bump on their head too I believe as they age. They guy I got my stock from actually has more, only I'm wary now to mix them because it seems they are going to take much more space, so about the only way I want to try that, is if I decide to stop breeding and keeping the Pytchochromis Oligocanthus. I'd try to favor Paratrolpeus Menarambo's over those as it is. If by the end of the year I cannot obtain the Menerambo's, I'm probably just going to concentrate on the Polleni. It appears from all I read, breeding these are quite a challenge too Barb. I have a feeling if you want to breed yours, it's going to turn into a determination challenge Either way, it's a good species to have for your program. If these prove to be too difficult, I wouldn't mind to donate my adult groups, which will become more easy to part with should I acquire Menarambos. It will either be a Menerambo project or I'll try Fronts for the 180, and that is after the Jardini is gone. Of course, should you know anyone that wouldn't mind a Jardini, I am selling off mine. I got an offer from someone in Cali too off MFK, and Carl is very busy too, so I'm hoping that either his contact or the one on MFK is willing to take them. I've got a large enough bag, and tranquil to ship it.
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