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Post by jonv on Jan 31, 2009 12:59:07 GMT -5
While I'd been talking to some other people about what might have more money per pop on breeding, we were also talking about hybrids and how to avoid them. Barbara had mentioned about looking at compatibility and what you could keep with what species and how to avoid it. I thought about looking up some Hunter information at the same time, and I stumbled across this. www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/pfk/pages/show_article.php?article_id=107Among the other information you can extract out of this, what I found funny is the cause of murky water in the natural lake itself, is a cause of wild hybrids. That's got to make you wonder if this is going on in the lake, these wild caught and imported specimens, if they aren't already hybrids themselves. Would love to hear some thoughts on this, and next time I do talk to Dr. Loiselle, I plan on asking him about this. I've got a lead on some places he gives presentations and talks to around here, and I'll be making it a goal to try to attend the next one he's listed as going to attend. Many thanks to John (8) here for pointing out to me as exhibits and auctions like this, as a valuable source of finding species you can't otherwise find, as well as potential network contacts.
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Post by barbara on Jan 31, 2009 19:12:37 GMT -5
Great link, pretty good information.
When stocking a Victorian tank, usually there is very little chance of cross breeding if the females and the males look very dissimilar. That's why I suggest a piebald species for a good mix, such as P. Chromogynos, or Red fin Piebald. Neochromis Omnicaeruleus also has piebald females. Some fish, such as the Thick Skin, or Sp. 44, will hybridize readily, with any female, because of the aggression level of the fish.
Not much collecting is being done in Lake Victoria at this point. Some fish, such as the Xystichromis phytophagus (Xmas fulu) has only been imported on rare occasions. Haplochromis sp. Dayglow is another that has only been imported once.
I do recommend a species only tank for breeding, but that's not always possible. A lot of people will tell you that you can never mix Vics, but after doing research, it is possible to minimize the chances of cross breeding. I'm actually doing an article about the myths about Vics. I'll be sure to post it here when finished.
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Post by brenda on Jan 31, 2009 20:57:01 GMT -5
That was a good read!!!
As we know I don't have species only tanks but I am very careful to get fish that females are totally different. It has worked so far, hopefully it will continue to work.
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Post by jonv on Jan 31, 2009 22:54:38 GMT -5
Thanks ladies. I'm planning on joining the North Jersey Aquarium Society this week. Dr. Loiselle has spoken there that last three Januaries on updates in what he's seen in Madagascar, but he'd be a great person to talk to about Victoria as well. I hope to make some more personal contacts too. I just made another one tonight via Vinny, I just didn't have time to talk to this one, but he left me a message. Barb, I'll be asking you, once I set that 100 up for a more Victorian setting, what else I might look to add.
I'll be damned too if I can find that female hunter. The injured male is looking quite a bit better, and the other male, I can see out and cruising the tank. Just can't seem to find the female.
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Post by barbara on Feb 1, 2009 22:41:10 GMT -5
Brenda, I definitely wasn't slamming your set up. I know who you get your advice on mixing Victorians from, and I doubt there are much better authorities on the subject. You also know that I believe that species tanks are best, but not the only way to go. Your mixes of fish is outstanding, and I don't think you could do much better than you have done.
Jon, just be careful when talking to "experts." All you have to do is go to any cichlid forum, and there is a resident "expert" on Victorians. They don't always give good advice. This has been an ongoing debate in my club. Just be careful who you take your advice from. I can tell you what works for me, and Brenda can tell you how her fish work out. I get my advice from several sources, but the one I trust the most is Greg Steeves. Most of what I know I have learned from him.
There are a lot of myths circulating about Victorians. That they will all cross breed, that they are all highly aggressive...those are a few. But just like mbuna, you have to use the same common sense when mixing them.
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Post by brenda on Feb 1, 2009 23:29:06 GMT -5
Oh, I didn't take that as a slam at all Barbara... I hope it didn't come out like that. I would have species only tanks if I could!! Barbara is right though...my mixes of fish were run by Greg as well as Dave (rare fish). I was told Dave would shave all the hair of his head if my mix were to cross breed, so I feel pretty safe!!! I just thought that was funny.
I would tend to think with the Vics you currently have they should be fine as they are all quite different. I am just not sure how the temperment is on the hunters. Hopefully, they are not too mild.
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Post by Carl on Feb 1, 2009 23:30:47 GMT -5
Barbara, I think you made some good points as to "experts". I am not passing any judgment, as I am learning in this subject from the rest of you in this thread. However I have found that often "experts" amy start this way, but often no longer are willing to learn either new "facts" or treat subjective subjects as facts.. Again, I do not want anyone to take this as statement against any of the Victorian "experts", only that I really liked the thought process that went into this post by Barbara as to this subject or really many subjects in fish keeping. I hate to amit, but I have been forced to change my opinion of "facts" in many aquatic subjects after better evidence came along. Carl
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Post by barbara on Feb 2, 2009 0:01:28 GMT -5
One of the things my husband and I discuss, and agree with, is that in fish keeping, there is more than one "correct" way to do something. It seems if something works, then keep doing it your way, but remember, there may be another way, or a better way. How I keep my fish works for me, how Brenda keeps hers works for her. How I do water changes works for me...on and on. I think people tend to get stuck in the "there is only MY way to do..." whatever. I'm glad that it worked for that person, but if something else works for me, then is my way still "wrong?"
I am no expert on fish keeping. On any subject involved with fish. I am an eager novice, but I am learning at the hands of some of the best. I consider myself extremely lucky to live where I do, and have access to the knowledge that I have. I intend to share what I learn, what I know, and how these things apply to my tanks. I think knowledge is the most important thing in fish keeping, and I'd like to help educate all that I am able.
I listen to all view points. If someone thinks that the way that I do something is the hard way, or not the best interest of the fish, I will listen, and attempt to modify my techniques.
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Post by Carl on Feb 2, 2009 11:21:45 GMT -5
One of the things my husband and I discuss, and agree with, is that in fish keeping, there is more than one "correct" way to do something. It seems if something works, then keep doing it your way, but remember, there may be another way, or a better way. How I keep my fish works for me, how Brenda keeps hers works for her. How I do water changes works for me...on and on. I think people tend to get stuck in the "there is only MY way to do..." whatever. I'm glad that it worked for that person, but if something else works for me, then is my way still "wrong?" I am no expert on fish keeping. On any subject involved with fish. I am an eager novice, but I am learning at the hands of some of the best. I consider myself extremely lucky to live where I do, and have access to the knowledge that I have. I intend to share what I learn, what I know, and how these things apply to my tanks. I think knowledge is the most important thing in fish keeping, and I'd like to help educate all that I am able. I listen to all view points. If someone thinks that the way that I do something is the hard way, or not the best interest of the fish, I will listen, and attempt to modify my techniques. I agree! Often there are more than one sucessful way to do care for aquariums. In reef keeping this attitude of "my way is the only way" hits a fever pitch. I often refer to these persons as the Reef keeping police and often been falmed badly in Reef keeping forums for suggesting anything outside of the anecdotal "accepted practices". Because of this I strongly recommend ANY thinking person ever join a purely Reef keeping forum, generally you get more honest advice in a "mixed forum" such as this than many specialty forums IMO. This is not to say there are not "black & white" issues such as a purely gram positive antibiotic cannot kill a gram negative bacteria. When someone "thinks" this has happened, they likely have not performed a controlled study and likely something else killed off this bacteria or the bacteria was not gram negative in the first place. I know I have gotten off subject in this thread, so my apologies. I just think that aquarium keeping is just way to full of subjectives treated as facts and facts twisted into subjectives by poor test methods/studies. Carl
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Post by barbara on Feb 2, 2009 18:34:13 GMT -5
I should apologize as well, but I find that communicating knowledge is important. I'd hate to rely on bad advice for my fish keeping, and I think it's important to use more than one source.
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Post by barbara on Feb 4, 2009 12:39:19 GMT -5
Jon, an interesting observation was made on the Hunters. Greg Steeves said they were hunting a holding female in "pack" formation, trying to get her to spit her fry. He was unable to capture video of this, but he said this was the first time he'd seen this behavior. He said that they were running into her, and it wasn't generalized to the throat, that she was taking blows to the head. Thought you'd find this interesting.
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Post by jonv on Feb 4, 2009 12:50:26 GMT -5
It is Barb and also that this is like a reverse Malawi too. I saw it mentioned that a lack of live or high protein foods can lead to this becomming a skinny fish.
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Post by barbara on Feb 4, 2009 18:34:00 GMT -5
The fish I'd really like to have is the European strain of the Hap. Limax. There are some Limax floating around the US, but according to my sources, they are some type of Paralabidochromis species, and not a true Limax.
The one fish I had a hard time obtaining here was the Hap sp "Kenya Gold." I rarely use Aquabid for fish, but these came up, and according to Greg, they were from a breeder with a good strain of them. I wish they grew a little faster, because I have quite a few people that want fry from these.
If you see Kenya Golds coming from Hawaii on Aquabid, I'd consider those if you have the space. Beautiful fish, not very common, and are now considered endangered in the wild. They are a snail eater in the wild.
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Post by barbara on May 21, 2009 14:08:16 GMT -5
In a discussion with a friend on Victorians, I was asked "How do you choose a species with all of the options?" I thought this was an excellent question, and one that might be interesting for debate.
I think availability would be the first deciding factor. There are many species I'd love to keep, but they are not commonly available. Finding a source with the pure species of a fish is not always an easy task, but worthwhile in the long run.
I also believe that you need to keep what appeals most to you. Some of the fish are quite similar, and some definitely stand out. Doing research on adult size, behavior, and care would be a deciding factor. A species such as Haplochromis sp. "Ruby" is a much easier fish to maintain than a Pundamilia species, because of the aggression levels, but the "Ruby" is an herbivore, where the Pundamilia tends to be an omnivore. Learning these things about the fish in question is critical to their care.
I think another point would be what your particular goals are for keeping this species. Are you interested in just keeping a beautiful fish, or do you wish to distribute the fry? Some species are very conservation dependant, so if you do not wish the additional work of raising fry, I would tend to steer people clear of the more at risk species. The added work is very rewarding, but raising fry is not always simple, and requires more tanks for safety and survival.
Any thoughts on this?
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Post by brenda on May 21, 2009 15:01:46 GMT -5
It is really hard to choose species. I can tell you the things I look for...There are so many more I would love to have but I have to take my set-up into consideration first. I can't always have fish that I really want just because I have a mixed community. I can usually get one species I really want but if I want more I am limited in choice do to the fact so many are too similar. I also find ones that are not similar and would mix well but they end up being herbivores...So that is another thing I look at as my tank is ALL omnivore or carnivore, so if they are an hebivore they are a no go. I also have to look at temperment...Since I am mixing I can't go with species labeled aggressive. All my fish were labeled as semi-aggressive but even with that I have had to get rid of species as they dissrupted the tank. Sometimes you have to just keep trying. The good thing is most of them are beautiful so I am still happy with what I end up with. Once I have an idea of what I want I them look to see if I can find them if not I look thru some more and decide. The first vic I wanted was the Perrieri but then in my looking realized that would not happen...but then because of great friends it did happen. Now with them I really plan on getting another tank and doing a species only tank. Anyways, this is a start for "how I choose" my species.
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Post by eve on May 21, 2009 15:12:43 GMT -5
i think this is a great topic, and pretty much deserves it's very own thread actually
anyway, looking at pics from victorians, one is more beautiful then the other one thing most of them seem to have in common, is that distinctive black line down their face, which gives them their personality look IMO
i think for me at the moment on how to choose them, would be can i offer them their habitat they need first of all and how endangered are they
i'm really not in for the money, i still see it as a great hobby and to be able to distribute new colony's of endangered species is one of my ultimate goals
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Post by brenda on May 21, 2009 15:24:27 GMT -5
Good points as well Eve. I am not in for making money either…There are some species I would sell but my endangered species (extinct in the wild) such as my Perrieri they will NEVER be sold. They will be passed out to others I feel have their best interests in mind.
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Post by eve on May 21, 2009 15:30:52 GMT -5
well, thanks to you and barbara, it looks like i will get into the victorians i had never even heard about them before, much less known anything about them i really like their looks
the one i really like at the moment is the "kyoga gold"
what i also need to do, once i'm in my own place again, is finding out if there are any fishclubs nearby, and what they're about
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Post by brenda on May 21, 2009 15:38:07 GMT -5
They are awesome fish, that as you said many people do not even know about . I am really glad to hear they interest you.
Do you mean "kenya gold"?
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Post by eve on May 21, 2009 15:43:48 GMT -5
ahem, yeah i guess so i knew i had the name wrong again
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