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Post by eve on Feb 4, 2009 14:51:11 GMT -5
you're very welcome glad i could help
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Post by jonv on Feb 4, 2009 14:58:55 GMT -5
On venting, I'm going to get some hands on training on doing this tomorrow, and I'll post about what I learn. I do not at all disagree this would be stressful. I think it probably would. But I see many professional keepers using this method at the 2 to 2.5 inch size range constantly. I would be inclined to think if this was a dangerous or not so good thing to do, the practice wouldn't have continued all this time. I'm just going to give it a try and see how it goes. Like you said Eve, this really is the only sure fire way or as close as you can get to it to know.
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Post by murdock6701 on Feb 4, 2009 15:00:51 GMT -5
ok Jon, your turn......LOL.....hope my asking questions doesn't turn this into WW3.....
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Post by eve on Feb 4, 2009 15:28:05 GMT -5
ok Jon, your turn......LOL.....hope my asking questions doesn't turn this into WW3..... lol, nah not at all i think it's a very rewarding discussion for everyone involved and whoever it might read
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Post by Carl on Feb 4, 2009 16:26:51 GMT -5
ta da! so there is an answer! thank you Eve! doubt if I'm gonna put my fish thru that kind of stress, or myself for that matter....thanks ALL for the input Are you saying you do not want any more stress John, but it is so much fun Sorry for the stupid reply, but I was in this kind of mood Carl
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Post by Carl on Feb 4, 2009 16:34:38 GMT -5
Eve; BTW, EXCELLENT link Carl
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Post by eve on Feb 4, 2009 16:50:33 GMT -5
Eve; BTW, EXCELLENT link Carl Thanks i was looking up information on venting months ago, and that was the best link i came across while doing so it's pretty amazing
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Post by jonv on Feb 4, 2009 20:27:19 GMT -5
Venting is pretty necessary I think in many species. If we consider the ones that are not dirmorphic, this pretty much is not only a necessity, but the best way to know for sure. Why would we want to know our African cichlid genders? Well I think of it like this. How many people have or keep a tank stocked in the say, 55, 75 gallon tank sizes and up? I'd take a gander, just speculation here, but probably only the more dedicated and serious keepers do. I'm not downing a non serious keeper that just finds them interesting and nice looking, and just wants to have some either. There is a difference.
In my opinion, the more serious type keepers will keep them in tanks they can thrive and spawn in. They will want to know everything and anything they can about the species they keep. This is where sexing becomes an important issue to me. In John's case, he's using a 20 gallon, and wisely doing one species only, in the proper sexing ratio's. If we didn't put any attention on gender, and started getting 2, 3, or 4 males in that tank, it's not going to thrive and there's very likely going to be deaths in a tank like that.
So what happens if we have species, such as the yellow labs that are not dimorphic? Let me back track a second for the thread views and explain what I mean by dimorphic. Dimorphism is when males and females have completely different looks and coloration. A Kenyi or even Auratus are perfect examples of this. Kenyi males are golden yellow, Kenyi females are a nice deep blue. You can't miss that. Dimorphic species however, take some time to mature, and in a group, you might have only 1 or 2 morph the color, but still have other males in the tank. This is why tank size can be a big issue as well when keeping groups of one species.
Now, back to the venting and sexing aspect for the non-dimorphic. Since there is no clear signal by color change to sex the fish, and we need to know just how many males and females we have stocked, venting the fish will help determine this before the onset of aggression, injuries or death. Venting is the process by which the fish is examined on the underside, and the pour above the anal opening is looked at. A male of the species will have a certain look and size to the pour then a female. This really is the only way to know for sure, in a species that isn't dimorphic, in my opinion. Sorry this is long and probably repetitive for those that know this, but I figured I'd post this discussion aspect for those viewing the thread for information.
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Post by murdock6701 on Feb 4, 2009 20:48:26 GMT -5
the link Eve provided was very clear as well in descprition and together w/ Jon's explanation on gendering, this little yellow lab question I started turned into a mass of incredibly good information! never expected it would draw so much attention but I'm glad it did becaiuse I think we all learned something on all levels of keeping! I now have doubts as to the sex of the larger "female" I have, mainly because of behavioural tendencies but am not going to pursue venting until they are a year old and "color" up a bit more maybe - I also lack the equipment to do it with, si my African endevour is on hold til spring - as Jon mentioned, I have only a 20 gallon tank for this attempt and rather than risk injury or death or have a fish live in fear, I will wait til I am more sure or positively sure what sex they are - always learning.....
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Post by Carl on Feb 5, 2009 10:02:37 GMT -5
Jon, that last post was excellent, combined with the link from Eve Venting MalawisI would like to combine these into a sticky or better, make this a post on the EA blog as a permanate article that we can then place on this forum board (and the Mouthbreeders board too) as a sticky of useful links Carl
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Post by kagome on Feb 5, 2009 12:26:10 GMT -5
This is all terribly interesting. I had no idea that this could be done. Too bad it doesn't work this way on some of the other cichlids like angelfish. That could make trying to match up a mated pair so much easier. I just wonder how do you get the poor frightened fish to hold still long enough for you to get a good look?
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Post by murdock6701 on Feb 5, 2009 12:26:19 GMT -5
Jon, have you attempted venting yet? said you were gonna try today.....just curious.....
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Post by Carl on Feb 5, 2009 12:54:16 GMT -5
This is all terribly interesting. I had no idea that this could be done. Too bad it doesn't work this way on some of the other cichlids like angelfish. That could make trying to match up a mated pair so much easier. I just wonder how do you get the poor frightened fish to hold still long enough for you to get a good look? Actually this can be done with Angels, although personally have not done this, a breeder friend demonstrated this years back. It is similar to the African cichlids, just that the vent is more difficult to view well without certain equipment. He used a jewelers loupe : And an Opti-visor (both normally for use by jewelers): www.graphictransfer.net/prodimages/supplies/optivisor.jpgCarl
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Post by Carl on Feb 5, 2009 13:54:46 GMT -5
I took the liberty and made this into a post that we can refer to as a stcik here on the boards, and I will link it into the Home Page. Eve, Jon, Barbara, Brenda; Please feel free to edit Carl
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Post by eve on Feb 5, 2009 14:44:59 GMT -5
I took the liberty and made this into a post that we can refer to as a stcik here on the boards, and I will link it into the Home Page. Eve, Jon, Barbara, Brenda; Please feel free to edit Carl great idea carl, i like it
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Post by jonv on Feb 5, 2009 16:20:51 GMT -5
No problem at all Carl, you can't miss it on the front page when you are navigating to the forum and I was like what? LOL Just got in sorry. Took longer then usual. Got my brakes fixed as well. Vinny had a mechanic friend who's laid off but still has a shop he does private work out of. He pretty much replaced the brakes at cost of parts for me. Couldn't turn that down. Would have given the guy more money for the trouble if I had it on me. John, I didn't do it myself but I watched Vinny do it and he showed me the fish, the pours just like Carl has shown and what the males and females look like. It can be a bit tricky to tell you the truth. When you have fish in a bucket or netted up, they are already stressed and sometimes, this can slightly distort the vent itself. Vinny went back through all the Flavus three times to make sure he took only my extra males. This was what was left over from my June spawn. The one where the mom died. I was pressed for time. Tried to get up earlier, but still, those fish are a sob to net out of a 180. I didn't get all my flavus, but I brought 16 over I could net. I think there were still four or five left in the tank, but the only ones I brought back were all female, so basically, I have a nice large sized breeding colony going now. 2 known adult males and 7 known females. I was actually close to as on target as you can get based on observation though, just for the record. I told Vinny, I think I am bringing over at least 10 males. Turned out, out of the 16 there were 9, so I was close. That's not to shabby based on observation of color changes, growth patterns and such without actually venting. At first Vinny said, dude, these are almost all female. I said Vinny, I'm telling you, when their father moves to another part of the tank, these guys will come out from under the rocks and will flash up their yellow, then go back to purple and hide when dad comes by. Second time around he found out there were more males then he thought All in all, I gave him that big blue zebra, which turns out, is a hybrid. It was a Moori Dolphin crossed with an OB Zebra. No wonder no one was ever able to find out what it was. I gave him the male Auratus, and the male Johanni, a couple Fullerboni's I didn't want, had another guy meet me up there to buy my extra Electric Blue male...all totaled, I got 40 in cash, but I also took back a pair of Yellow belly Haps that are from a sublet of Lake Victoria. Breeding pair, non hybrid too. Hell of a day and deal, but in short John, I didn't put my hands on the fish and do it, but I watched the vents and saw as he said male or female.
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Post by brenda on Feb 5, 2009 16:33:55 GMT -5
Are you talking about the yellow belly alberts? If so that is awesome, they are good looking fish. I don’t see them around very often.
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Post by eve on Feb 5, 2009 18:48:55 GMT -5
Well finally you solved the mystery around the so called blue zebra, that's great congrats on the new fish
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Post by jonv on Feb 5, 2009 21:09:56 GMT -5
It's a kind of Hap Brenda. It's basically bi colored but very striking colors in the males I've seen. Color patterns are varied in the males too, so that you can in a small sense, line breed out the colors you want. I made sure to ask around about this, and color varients of the same species of fish is not considered to be hybrids in most groups. I suspect the "purist" group though would disagree.
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Post by murdock6701 on Feb 5, 2009 21:14:23 GMT -5
jon, you'd better watch out! you're not posting where you should be! this is a yellow lab discussion and you're gonna get moved....am happy things are working out for you - check your PM...
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