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Post by jonv on Dec 11, 2008 22:49:01 GMT -5
Fixed
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Post by jonv on Jan 9, 2009 19:53:50 GMT -5
I was out most of the day tending to my 75 gallon tank which is maintained about 30 miles down the road at the house with her dad, brother and nephew. I'd taken back with me, the second adult male Ventustus, the other Albino Channel Cat we had, and the last male Albino Taiwan Reef. I moved the Albino Channel cat right to the pet store, so I have some credit there, but when I checked the water chemistry in the 75, I found ammonia was very very high, like somewhere in the 3 to 4 ppm range. I was very puzzled why that would be, yet the stock in there, about 5 juvenile Yellow Labs, 4 big fat 5 inch clown loaches, the 5 Juvenile Venustus, 13 of my Protomelas Steveni Albino fry I transferred out there a couple days before, a nice 6 inch Sailfin Pleco, the 2 Fullerboni I had, that Metriclimea Zebra that did that cross breeding I posted way back, a nice big 4 inch Ps. Elongatus...basically, a pretty nice stocking level, yet they weren't all dead at 3 to 4 ppm on the Ammonia. Well I took out the three fish I mentioned, the Catfish, adult male Venustus, and the adult male TR. I put the Venustus and the TR in the main tank, and the next day (yesterday) I found the Venustus laying upside down in the gravel, but he got up and moved around when I turned the lights on. I put him in a second Meth Blue bath with API salt, and was talking with Carl on the phone how to treat this better, and by the time we were off the phone, he was stone dead. The TR male is hanging in there. He's got some ragged fin damage, and a tumorous looking growth on his eye, but he's alive, just not terrible active. I've bathed him twice in Meth Blue trying to reverse any nitrogen damage and is so far, hanging in. So tonight, the wife decided she wanted to make use of the black wooden stand we picked up last year, so basically I had to do a 100% change in that tank, the 75, to transfer the tank from one stand to the other. Probably best thing anyways given how messed up that water is. I know I'm rambling on, but I think now, I figured out what happend. As I was draining out the tank, I vacuumed out the gravel. It was comming out like tar black in clouds of crap. Ryan, (the Nephew) was doing water changes, but not gravel vacuuming. I mean it must have been months since that gravel got vacuumed with how dark black that junk was. My best guess, is extended organic decay must have been going on, far beyond what the bio filter could cope with, not to mention, the likely carbonic and nitric acids that must have been going into the water. So anyways, I'm just getting back now from doing a 100% change, because the tank had to be picked up and moved. Looking better in there, and I put in a couple compartments worth of my own bio max into the filter, dosed it pretty darn heavy with some Prime, adding a half bottle of Aqua Plus to help slime and stress coat them, and a good strong dose of aquarium salt. I'll check on how things are looking on Monday. Was able to get some decent shots of the Datinoid though!!! s200.photobucket.com/albums/aa25/knottypeater/?action=view¤t=010909_1813a.flvs200.photobucket.com/albums/aa25/knottypeater/?action=view¤t=010909_1813b.flvs200.photobucket.com/albums/aa25/knottypeater/?action=view¤t=010909_1814a.flvI really love this fish, because it's not common to find in just any store, and that there are a few different types of these around Asia mostly. It's one of the few true predators I can find in freshwater also, to where it basically will not eat ANYTHING else but live fish. This guy still has some growing to do as well. Now for the other news, the Oligocanthus, both females, spawned!!! Found both females guarding different sites in the tank, and looking closer, found a pit of eggs underneath both of them. I don't have any experience with egg laying nest builders, as best i can figure, they are fanning the eggs, though they could have been doing it for awhile now as I wouldn't know what this actually looks like. Good sign though. I noticed while I was conversing with Carl yesterday afternoon, the male had gone from sitting on the bottom in an area he felt was his, and chasing off the females, to actively pursuing the females around the tank, and I picked up on a very slight color shift in his body. It appeared as if the under side of him got more white looking, and a yellowish, maybe brownish hint in his dorsal fin. I'll have to look closer next time around to confirm if there is a color shift in the male when he's ready to breed. I will say, that there was a clear and distinct behavior shift though, from sitting in one area only, to actively pursuing the females. Best shots of the nest as I could get. s200.photobucket.com/albums/aa25/knottypeater/?action=view¤t=010909_1918a.flvs200.photobucket.com/albums/aa25/knottypeater/?action=view¤t=010909_1919a.flvs200.photobucket.com/albums/aa25/knottypeater/?action=view¤t=010909_1919b.flv
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Post by Carl on Jan 9, 2009 21:25:11 GMT -5
It is amazing that your Clown Loaches survived this! Black Tar BTW is an indication that you had Sulfur Reduction going on in your gravel, that in turn produces Hydrogen Sulfides which also may have played a role in the death of your Venustus, however the mystery is why others were not as effected. See: Aquarium Answers; Hydrogen SulfideCarl
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Post by jonv on Jan 9, 2009 21:38:39 GMT -5
I didn't really specifiy this, sorry, but from how it came out, it appeared to be localized in the back area's of the tank. You vacuum out the front, typical brownish debris I have seen, but when you force the head to the back end of the tank, it was like black tar clouds. Still, it's not something I wanted in the water, and probably accounts for that horrendous Ammonia reading. They aren't completely out of the woods yet, but they certainly are more active then they were. There were some messed up fins on some, but I aqua plus coated them pretty well, added a good dose of salt as well as Prime.
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Post by bikeguy33 on Jan 9, 2009 22:09:18 GMT -5
just to add my 2 cents.....i have maintained tanks that are stupid high ammonia...to the point of being able to smell it. what seems to happen is that this rises so slowly that the fish adapt to it....even some of the more sensitive ones like the clowns. what i also found here in my experiences are that several smaller water changes over a week or so seems to work better than a couple huge ones. i think if the water changes too quickly it shocks the fish....
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Post by jonv on Jan 9, 2009 22:13:16 GMT -5
Bill, he changes the water yes, but he wasn't vacuuming in the gravel at all. Maybe the last time Lotje did it, since I made sure she knows how to do it the way I do, was like 2-3 months ago. Ryan was supposed to be cleaning out the tank, and yeah, he'd put the thing in and drain/fill the water only. Nothing in the substrate for months.
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Post by jonv on Jan 10, 2009 11:53:32 GMT -5
Damn. The female that spawned on the brick surface, looks like she's given up. It's hard to tell what's going on, but she's no longer lingering over the site. There are still a few eggs there, but already, the Polka dot Botia got into them, and I've seen the male pick at them a bit too. I think I'm going to lose that group, but the female that spawned in the shell pit, appears to be doing good. Going on about 30 hours into spawning, best I can figure, but I still don't see much of a color change in those eggs.
Yeah while I'm typing, I can see, the nest site on that brick, has been abandoned. Nothing to feel bad about. I'm sure it happens in the wild. At least the other female has her nest pit going. I have seen the reports suggesting, if you get eggs, you're better off seperating and incubating the eggs yourself, otherwise, a good deal of them get eaten. I am going to allow them to try to do this naturally though at first. This is the second time eggs have been laid, my will be my first egg laying species spawning, so I'd like to try things naturally at first. If the other site goes down, next time I spot eggs, I'll try manual incubation.
One thing needs to be noted, when I do this species profile, even though those females are very small by comparison, they have little to no fear even biting my hand if I do a water change in the tank, if I get too close to the nest site. They push defense of that site to the very edge of themselves being threatend.
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Post by jonv on Jan 10, 2009 12:00:18 GMT -5
Yeah no doubts now, I just saw the male and the female, in the brick area, and they basically just sat there while the Polka Dot Botia had a snack of those eggs. There's still a handful scattered about on the site, but I give up hope anything will come of it. Their either going to be a snack for someone or they are just going to end up necrosing now. Shame too because that was the site I felt I captured a good shot of what I think egg fanning looks like. Back to the drawing board with that female lol.
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Post by Carl on Jan 10, 2009 17:19:36 GMT -5
Sorry this happened Jon, it does seem strange that she would go to the trouble of fanning the eggs only to abandon them.
However at least you have the female that spawned in the shell pit if I read correctly.
Carl
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Post by bikeguy33 on Jan 10, 2009 18:40:13 GMT -5
jon.....i wasnt mentioning a solution....just mentioning my thoughts on how alot of fish can live in such a high ammonia level....no doubt tho that the mulm in the gravel was the culprit as to why the levels got that high. i am sorry this happened to you. i go away for a few days and i dread coming home to dead fish. just don`t trust anyone....lol
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Post by jonv on Jan 10, 2009 19:24:02 GMT -5
Yeah the one that has the pit, that's looking very good from all I can tell. I examined the pit closer again, trying to see if there were any changes in the eggs, and yes, what now appears on a great deal of the eggs, is a black dot like in the middle of the egg. Being I have 0 experience with this, I am assuming that means fertilized egg, and that is a young fish beginning to grow.
Carl, I have a feeling what happend, the male probably didn't fertilize that second group. When I observe how they act, he seems to spend quite a bit of time with the pitted female, and actually appears to be helping her watch over that group. THough he more looks like he's just kind of sitting there like saying, ok I'm here, he did excavate some more for her yesterday. I can see a very tiny amount of eggs that look pearl looking and I'm assuming that means those are no good. It's going to be difficult to extract those if those are bad eggs, because now both are watching over the area I see them in, and the female I know, at least, bites.
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Post by jonv on Jan 10, 2009 20:36:17 GMT -5
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Post by brenda on Jan 10, 2009 21:27:47 GMT -5
Cool vid...Those are pretty cool looking fish. I am so glad you were able to save your male.
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Post by jonv on Jan 11, 2009 0:16:08 GMT -5
Thanks Brenda. I just hope that little black dot in those eggs is an indication of a fertilized healthy egg. Carl reccommended weeding out those opaque looking ones as that's likely unfertilized ones, and if they necrose, could potentially infect others in the area. I like the idea, but I also lack experience in doing this. These eggs are very very small, and to get to an individual egg would be difficult to do, plus, that female, now even the male being there, are very very protective of the site. Last time when I found eggs and tried to clean and pick up the decor, I got bit and that's when the eggs weren't good eggs too.
I'm going to have to get some input from other egg laying breeders here in how they do that, and probably read over some articles on what to do. Carl did make great ideas, in using non substrate tanks, and even using Meth Blue to help keep the eggs healthy along with sponge filters. For me, it would be helpful if I could see what that looks like.
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Post by eve on Jan 11, 2009 0:24:28 GMT -5
usually the parents will pick out any bad eggs an indication for bad eggs usually also is if they're white, which means they have fungus on them
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Post by jonv on Jan 11, 2009 0:33:25 GMT -5
Yeah there are a few in the group that are looking kind of pearl white. Most of them, still mostly opaque or clear looking and have a little black dot in the middle of the egg. I do not know though, how I would possibly pick or weed out the bad eggs. Those two, if you look at the clips, are sitting right over that site, very tight.
I'm pleased the male is active this time. First time around, he didn't seem to really care about anything, and spent all last month, just sitting on his lard in the substrate, chasing everyone away from him. 2 days ago, he decided he was going to go after the females and hunt them down. Now I see why LOL. I hear you Eve and Carl said the same, I just don't know how to do this, without risking damaging good eggs. First time here.
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Post by eve on Jan 11, 2009 0:41:15 GMT -5
yes, the dotted ones, usually definitely indicated fertalized ones
hmm, that's a good question i could imagine 8 would know more about how to cull them out, as i have never had that either
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Post by jonv on Jan 11, 2009 21:11:32 GMT -5
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Post by jonv on Jan 11, 2009 21:22:32 GMT -5
There are however, a great deal more unfertilized eggs then I had figured on. I'm guessing this group was probably 50% fertlized. Mom is doing a great job of moving back and forth between the egg site and storage site, picking up straggelers and checking over her eggs for anyone she might have missed, and dad just sites over the storage site like ok I'm here.
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Post by babygeige on Jan 11, 2009 22:23:15 GMT -5
Those are really cool videos! Cichlids are so neat!
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