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Post by jonv on Oct 27, 2008 22:57:54 GMT -5
Hey, I've got a strong lead on getting a breeding pair of PTYROCHROMIS NOSSIBEENISIS. This is another one of the Madagascar type cichilds and from all I've heard from this seller, another substrate spawner that really produces some nice fry counts, and is another species that is extinct in it's natural habitat!!! I don't have the funds just yet and trying to get this guy to hold them for me. A species like this, adults and known spawners don't come around that often and I'm so pumped right now if this guy will just hold them for me at least.
At this rate, that will be three Madagascar types I'll have, first one of breeding age, i just may well end up getting completely out of Mbuna and Peacocks and try a Madagascar and Hap type mix.
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Post by bikeguy33 on Oct 27, 2008 23:52:07 GMT -5
good luck there jon....what are they asking for a breeding pair???
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Post by jonv on Oct 28, 2008 0:33:27 GMT -5
115.00 for the pair, and that's including priority mail shipping. That's about what I figured and say you deduct like 25.00 for shipping, that's like 80 or 90 for the pair, and this pair apparently MASS breeds. Some reports are showing the female drops anywhere from 2500-3500 eggs. The seller has reported to me, he gets about 60-65% survival rate which is more then acceptable to me. Makes me wonder how a species that breeds so massively could be extinct in it's own waters unless they are a species that's hit hard by predators.
Thats pretty much why I think I'm going to get out of Mbuna all togeather after this. I don't want that species type anywhere near possible eggs. Though I'm sure some Haps, especially the Venustus, would possibly go after them, I could eventually switch the 100 to be a Hap Peacock only tank, the 180 be my substrate spawner tank with the 2 Tilapia plus this group, and the 75 still be my holding tank for prized fry, or MAYBE that'll be a Mbuna only tank. Not sure. The labs look VERY promising so far, and John should get his tomorrow. The high yellow in the first spawn makes me think again if I want to phase out of Mbuna or not. She's holding another group and this group looks BIG too. I'll want to see how these turn out first.
I'm just so excited. I know Nossibeenisis are not exactly a hot looking African but something that is extinct in it's own waters, that's a can't pass.
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Post by goldenpuon on Oct 28, 2008 4:21:04 GMT -5
That's really exciting Jon! I wish you the best of luck breeding! You you end up with some nice fish.
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Post by brenda on Oct 28, 2008 8:42:39 GMT -5
That is awesome Jon...I'll have to look that one up later. I think you should also see about Paretroplus Menarambo. These are also extinct in the wild and I think they are awesome looking. Here is a link with picture. Maybe you've already looked at these but just thought I'd throw it out there. www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/species.php?id=2138
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Post by Carl on Oct 28, 2008 9:52:57 GMT -5
Is this the fish you are thinking of Jon? Brenda, the link you provided looked like an interesting fish too. Carl
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Post by jonv on Oct 28, 2008 11:55:57 GMT -5
That's the one Carl from what I've seen. I've talked direct with the guy off and on last night and today so I've finalized the deal. I won't be getting this group until mid November, but he will hold them for me. I think like some others have noted, the drawback to trying to sell a species like this, is you don't have the very striking colors like you see in typical Africans, but to anyone that knows or studies species of fish, this is well worth it in the value of it being extinct in it's natural waters, plus, I think you can see this seems to be a very old close to ancient species, and I suspect undergone little evolutionary changes. This makes it interesting to keep.
I just can't seem to figure out, if this species is so prolific in spawning, why would it's numbers go extinct in the wild.
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Post by jonv on Oct 28, 2008 11:57:15 GMT -5
I did Brenda, but the asking prices on that species, we're talking close to 75 sometimes even as much as 150.00 per fish!!! That's a little too expensive for my tastes though I would have preferred to get the Menarambo's they are asking far too much for that one. This species should well suffice I think.
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Post by brenda on Oct 28, 2008 12:03:17 GMT -5
Yeah...That is a lot. I have heard they are pretty hard to get. They are beautiful though. I also agree that though many of these fish don't have the stricking color there are many people out there who want them.
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Post by Carl on Oct 28, 2008 12:19:03 GMT -5
This alone is a good reason to breed them IMO
Carl
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Post by goldenpuon on Oct 28, 2008 16:38:19 GMT -5
I think they're an excellent fish to keep. But I'm wondering, how did they go extinct in the wild? Was it caused by humans or did it happen naturally? If people did it, i hope we find a way to get some back into the wild.
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Post by jonv on Oct 28, 2008 16:53:04 GMT -5
These are the images the person sent me of the fish and turns out this is really a trio, not just a breeding pair which I think is even better. If these guys spawn like he says, I'm going to be very challenged in what I'm keeping in what tanks. I'm clearly going to have to restructure the tank set ups. I really don't want to ditch out on my Mbuna and Haps. I might be able to forgo the Peacocks, but I really like my Haps since that's the oldest group I've had plus the Mbuna themselves are pretty amazing. Going to be a tough call but as of now, it's looking like I think that 75 is going to become a Mbuna tank, the 100 will be the Hap/Peacock tank, and I'm going to TRY to do the Tilapia with this species in the 180. I'm a little worried about having multiple substrate spawners in there if I'm not playing with fire or not. The only possible advantage I have doing this, is the 6 x 2 footprint area. I still think 115 including priority shipping with that is a great deal for these three.
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Post by jonv on Oct 28, 2008 16:53:54 GMT -5
I also noted to Carl on the phone, it's pretty darn amazing how close these look like a South American too.
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Post by brenda on Oct 28, 2008 18:19:13 GMT -5
I also noted to Carl on the phone, it's pretty darn amazing how close these look like a South American too. That's what I was thinking. They are pretty even though they aren't all colorful.
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Post by bikeguy33 on Oct 28, 2008 18:28:28 GMT -5
hope they work out. is there documentation on that volume of eggs??? or that they are extinct in the wild??? I have seen in sales....both online and in stores, people will often tell you what you want to hear. If this is all true tho, $115 is a great price. now the reason for extinction in the wild i have a few guesses on, one of which you touched on. being a mild mannered prey fish to other cichlids. also....if there are alot of f0`s and f1`s....maybe the aquarium trade brought them to this point. my third and least likely thought....how big do they get. is it possible they are a food fish in madagascar? man can quickly overfish a population to extinction
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Post by jonv on Oct 28, 2008 18:51:17 GMT -5
I'm looking for that now Bill. I found the auction via aquabid and I hear you on the warning. I usually can smell out a bs'er with all the auctions I've been to. The searches aren't yielding much on this species, but having the pics up I think should help. I have heard of this species mentioned in the past, but I think this must be one of those rare ones for sure because I just can't seem to find much on it.
Good question on size. Not sure since I can't find a relative data sheet. When I have looked into Madagascar's in the past Bill, I will say this much. Much of the data on these species, Madagascar cichilds alone, CF has only 22 total species listed and Pytchochromis is listed under Madagascar. I just can't see someone making up it's own name you know. Something like that would long get detected. I just can't get over how much they appear to have a South American look to them.
All I've read to date on the conditions in Madagascar, the biggest impact is the land developement is apparently hitting the local fish VERY hard and they are noting some species not showing up in the waters any more at all. I haven't found anything indicating they are fished for food, but many British people have taken quite an interest on obtaining many Madagascar types, so I want to join in the crowd on that. I truely believe at some point in the future, probably in our lifetime, it's going to be close to the point, most of these species are going to be kept by tank keepers only if it already isn't that way. I really hope I can help to preserve a species, though I will admit, it sure will make the price tag on offspring of the species command a nice buck!!
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Post by jonv on Oct 28, 2008 19:13:55 GMT -5
I found this off Cichlid Room Companion. The last part makes me feel though the name might be just a local name given and not have a true meaning, that these fish are still endangered or extinct. "As for the question of what is Ptychochromis nossibeensis, the answer in itself is simple: this species does not exist. When Bleeker studied the new fish species he was to describe under the name of Tilapia oligacanthus, he had 6 specimens at his disposal; all collected by Dutch travellers Pollen and Van Dam. One specimen, the largest and most colourful, originated from the Sambirano River on the main island, the 5 smaller specimens having been collected in one of close-by Nosy Be Island's crater lakes. Bleeker chose the Sambirano specimen to make a detailed description of the morphology and coloration of the species (this specimen is called the holotype today), then briefly compares the 5 smaller Nosy Be specimens with the Sambirano one, noting some very minor differences in their coloration. The description of Tilapia oligacanthus is written in Latin (not too difficult to understand!), but at the end there are also some short comments in French in which Bleeker comes back on the small differences he has noted on the Nosy Be specimens he designates as "var. nossibensis" compared to the Sambirano specimen on which his description is based. In his writing, there is absolutely no indication that Bleeker could have considered the Nosy Be specimens as belonging to a different species or even subspecies. .Perhaps more important, modern molecular analysis work seams to support this view, as Ptychochromis sp. specimens collected from a nearby river on the mainland (Mananjeba River) show very little genetic divergence with Nosy Be fishes and both can be considered as belonging to the same species, namely Ptychochromis oligacanthus (Bleeker 1868). Unfortunately it has not been possible up to now to collect any recent Ptychochromis material from the Sambirano River, so it has not been possible to compare the Sambirano Ptychochromis with its Nosy Be relative using modern genetic technology. .As local fishermen seem to think there are still a few "Tsipoy" in the Sambirano River, let's hope we will still be able to do that one day. Dear Lisa, this is probably a bit too much for your forum, but perhaps you can extract something out of it it and some members of Madfish might have found some interest in it. I intend to write a note on the type material of the first three species of Malagasy cichlids (P.aratilapia polleni, Ptychochromis (Tilapia). oligacanthus and Paretroplus damii) described by Bleeker, as I have had the opportunity to acquire an original 1874 edition of a work containing first Bleeker’s descriptions of these three species (with many more marine species) and secondly Pollen’s account of his travelling along Madagascar’s coasts he undertook with Van Dam, in which he gives with precision the places where these three species were collected and the circumstances that lead to their capture." From: www.cichlidae.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1181
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Post by goldenpuon on Oct 29, 2008 10:13:52 GMT -5
Fascinating Jon! I'm glad you are going to try to save the species! Great idea!
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Post by jonv on Oct 29, 2008 11:01:15 GMT -5
I posted in cichild-forum last night, finally got an answer. I really can't think of a better place to get some input on this subject to be honest. Ok so apparently this Nossibee issue is really just about the part of the lake is all but they are actually a different name.
JonV
Joined: 09 Jan 2008 Location: Randolph NJ PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 7:41 pm Post subject: Nossibeensis question Reply with quote Report post I've been trying to dig up information about Ptychochromis Nossibeensis which apparently in some places, say this isn't a true species but just part of the Ptychochromis Sp. only. Can ANYONE tell me anything about this species please. I don't see it listed in the CF profile listings, and I have secured a breeding trio off an auction but I really want to know the rarity of this species and if this is even the species name. Please anyone...
The seller gave me three JPEG shots of the fish in question, if it will help I can post those in here. Back to top View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Vincent
Joined: 07 May 2004 Location: Holladay, UT PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 8:46 am Post subject: Reply with quote Report post Paul Loiselle gave a talk at our club. He said that nosibeensis is a variety of Pty. oligacanthus found on the small island of Nosy Be just off the north west coast of Madagascar. There are several crater lakes on the island and the fish from each lake is slightly different. Ideally you would call them Pty. oligacanthus Nosy Be 'Lake Whatever'.
I have the closely related Pty. grandidieri East Coast Gold and wish I had the room for nossibeensis. Very interesting fish!
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Post by brenda on Oct 29, 2008 11:42:14 GMT -5
Jon...Check this out also... www.cichlidae.com/article.php?id=97It is from 1995 but interesting. I got the help finding this from people at hill country cichlid club, hopefully I'll get more answers....They seem to be very knowledgeable when it comes to rare cichlids. I know a lot of the articles you find on the internet about the cichlids from lake Victoria are by some of these guys.
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