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Post by bikeguy33 on Dec 4, 2008 23:13:14 GMT -5
thank you 8....appreciate that.....all breeders i have spoken to here all tell me they are near impossible to find. here on auction they are in the thousands for 12-14" adults when they do come up for sale....
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Post by bikeguy33 on Dec 15, 2008 21:55:41 GMT -5
okay....a lil bit of an update here, and this is weird. I found fry in my tank. the timing is coincidental maybe, but for all you who breed cichlids....i have a pair of labeotropheus trewavasa, a blue male and a orange female. as you know, my vieja was guarding a clutch of eggs. what my question is, is it possible that the female laid her eggs and the male fertilized them, then before the female could get them into her mouth, the mammoth vieja stole the clutch? i know this sounds far fetched, but i have at least 4 fry and the female trewavasae has been doing her normal hiding thing, with no concern for the young. any input here would be appreciated...
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Post by bikeguy33 on Dec 15, 2008 21:57:06 GMT -5
btw....i will add pics of the cute lil ones as soon as i have batteries....
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Post by jonv on Dec 15, 2008 22:17:44 GMT -5
My first inclination, and I'd hope that John (8) would comment as well, but again my first thought is that a Trawersse would be too far removed in relation or not even remotely related enough to fertilize the eggs myself. However, probably best if we took a look or had a listing of every single male fish in the tank Bill, and kind of go through a process of elimination.
I am willing to bet that Carl may have some research or knowledge in the area of self fertilzation too, maybe something along the lines how guppies can store up sperm to deliver in the absence of a male? I dunno, shot in the dark there Bill but I wouldn't bet any money on a crossing with the African myself.
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Post by jonv on Dec 15, 2008 22:20:01 GMT -5
Ok maybe I read that wrong. So you are saying that you don't see the female or didn't see the female Trewavasa holding a brood, but you have Trewavasa fry around?
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Post by murdock6701 on Dec 15, 2008 22:22:09 GMT -5
maybe the female lab just had them but doesn't know what to do....who's watching the fry? good one Billy! cigars all around? congrats! nwo what are you gonna do?
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Post by jonv on Dec 15, 2008 22:28:20 GMT -5
I would find it unlikely that eggs got left there Bill as females, in spawning for the mouthbrooders, immediately pick up the eggs after each pass around the male. Now, if the Vieja came by and interrupted that process, more likely it would have ended up with unfertilized eggs I am thinking. However, as I understand substrate spawners/egg layers, the females will fan the eggs during this time, which is basically the same thing female mouthbrooders are doing when holding the eggs in their mouth. So it would technically be possible, if those eggs got fertilized, and they had decided to try to spawn in the area the Vieja was having her eggs for some odd reason, I don't think deducing they got left under the Vieja's care would be that far fetched. I'd just have a hard time believing the Africans would even try to spawn in that area.
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Post by bikeguy33 on Dec 15, 2008 22:36:55 GMT -5
the eggs were obviously fertilized since i have fry swimming around. they are trewavasae fry. what i was meaning was....is it possible the eggs were laid by the female trewavasae then fertilized by the male and stolen before she could pick them up?
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Post by bikeguy33 on Dec 15, 2008 22:39:29 GMT -5
by the way....2 weeks ago or so the female vieja was fanning and guarding a clutch. this is the clutch i think she stole from the trewavasae pair
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Post by Carl on Dec 15, 2008 22:49:27 GMT -5
I am willing to bet that Carl may have some research or knowledge in the area of self fertilzation too, maybe something along the lines how guppies can store up sperm to deliver in the absence of a male? I dunno, shot in the dark there Bill but I wouldn't bet any money on a crossing with the African myself. I really doubt this is possible, I do not think any egg layer stores sperm (but I am not positive) My guess is these are others offspring; the trewavasae. Maybe Spock would know, LOL (pulling your leg since I know your a trekie) ;D Congrats either way! Carl
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Post by bikeguy33 on Dec 15, 2008 22:56:14 GMT -5
these are obviously trewavasae fry....but i saw nothing from her and she is a maternal mouth brooder. i DID see the vieja fanning and looking after eggs that COULDNT be fertilized by her kind. what i am asking....is it possible the vieja STOLE the trewavasae clutch before the female trewavasae could scoop them back into her mouth after fertilization?
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Post by murdock6701 on Dec 15, 2008 23:17:25 GMT -5
she could be an adoptive mom, otherwise, wouldn't she have eaten them by now? her size alone is probably intimidating to the lab mom......
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Post by bikeguy33 on Dec 15, 2008 23:20:49 GMT -5
it is very intimidating....even to me....lol. these lil guys hide well. i thought there was 4.....now i have counted 4 males and 3 females still alive
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Post by jonv on Dec 16, 2008 1:09:57 GMT -5
Well it really only leaves one last possibility here. Maybe the female was holding the whole time? I mean I really have to look in and see if anyone is acting unusual to spot a holding female. Most always in my tank, if I spot a fish hanging out in the back only, keeping to itself, not interacting with anyone, that's a pretty good sign, and I just need to confirm, is this a female or not...usually it does turn out to be female, and the tricky part in this, is that sometimes you don't really see a bulge in the mouth until at least a week to 10 days as the eggs begin to develop further. The lack of eating pretty much would confirm it.
Not much point to solve the issue, but for future's reference Bill, that might help you out. Of course, your tank isn't the exact same size as mine and with your big Vieja there, they may not find a place to keep to themselves as readily? Taking a guess because if it were me, what I'd watch for in the future is a female staying away from everyone. Sounds good to me though, and glad this worked out for you. You may even find, a few straggelers here and there hiding in parts of the tank you can't see, or it could just be a low count on a first time spawn, nothing unusual there, or even still, many might have gotten eaten. This is highly still likely as males don't recognize their own offspring. The few that are there are likely to have been "adopted" so to say by the Vieja too, and might even be a good thing, that the male probably wouldn't even think to try to go after them ha ha.
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Post by murdock6701 on Dec 16, 2008 9:31:30 GMT -5
could be your vieja is a male after all....?
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Post by babygeige on Dec 16, 2008 14:06:24 GMT -5
This is so interesting! I don't know the first thing about cichlids, but it sounds like a definite possibility that the vieja stole the eggs, thinking they were hers. Especially if she's the bigger one. Is the vieja the one that is guarding them?
It's like one of those deals where a female dog finds an orphaned kitten or something and then takes care of it. So cute!
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Post by bikeguy33 on Dec 16, 2008 23:37:42 GMT -5
the vieja is guarding them, even from me. if i get to close she puts her body inbetween me and the fry.i found a few more today as well. they are around 1/8" long. i am fairly certain i have sexed them proper because in trewavasae, the females are almost always a yellowy orange.
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Post by jonv on Dec 17, 2008 14:21:20 GMT -5
The cichlids that end up picking up the catfish eggs when spawning, still care for those catfish as if they are it's own, even though the young cats eat all her own brood. I guess there is something in the females that don't allow or it doesn't know how to identify it's own brood or offspring from another. I have seen some of my Taiwan Reef females take in and care for Flavus fry before when the females were in the same tank. They just seem to see little fry and take them in.
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Post by Carl on Dec 17, 2008 14:53:36 GMT -5
the vieja is guarding them, even from me. if i get to close she puts her body inbetween me and the fry.i found a few more today as well. they are around 1/8" long. i am fairly certain i have sexed them proper because in trewavasae, the females are almost always a yellowy orange. If you could get a video of this, that would be cool, as I think this would be really interesting to see Carl
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Post by bikeguy33 on Dec 17, 2008 15:57:39 GMT -5
i will try...
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