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Post by Carl on Apr 7, 2019 14:01:34 GMT -5
*The symptoms you have been describing are symptoms of internal issues and osmoregulation issues. This is what I have honestly been trying to tell you here As I have noted, there is no obvious Velvet, so treating for this will only add undo stress. The black on the fins is likely the fish can be healing, but there was nothing to heal, so in this case it is much more likely another indicator of a fish slowly succumbing from other issues as this is likely a form of necrosis. As I have noted, we need to address with fish baths possibly using AAP Bettamax. But even salts and Methylene Blue may help. However as I've been now going in circles in pointing out, your fish clearly has internal issues that are causing these outward issues, which is why we need to know all parameters too, (including new water being used) As well, the high heat also may have permanently damaged this poor Betta as I noted earlier. I know you have stated you've read the articles, but your repeat questions ignoring what I've stated tells me you at the very least are not following what is laid out in this article alone: www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2016/09/how-to-treat-sick-fish.htmlCarl
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Post by bluetastic on Apr 8, 2019 16:29:11 GMT -5
The symptoms could be just of external. I need more logic about why these are of internal. The black is fin rot and its severe. i mean that he lost almost all of a fin in about three days. I am using oxitetracycline and maybe i could get kanamicin and furan 2. and i moved him to the 3 liters bowl instead of 20 liters. maybe i am going to perform more baths. I dont remember, maybe he was very happy on that bowl and it is more easy to catch him on the three liters instead of the tank of 20 and it will cause less stress and also its more easy to clean the bowls for me and i use less medicine. i will use two bowls of about three litters. one for baths. 100% water changes daily with oxitetracycline. and two baths of just methylene blue and salt.
But now its better to work on this severe fin rot and in the water. and the food. and seems not velvet to me too. but columnaris.
This sounds a lot of work.
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Post by bluetastic on Apr 8, 2019 22:20:34 GMT -5
I did a bath with 4 teaspoons of salt instead of three and the fish started to breathing fast. It could because i added one more teaspoon? or because of the stress or what?
Should i continue doing more baths because of this?
maybe a better way to cause him less stress when i am moving him of bowl
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Apr 9, 2019 11:57:17 GMT -5
The fins are black now. which internal issues? osmoregulation
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Post by Carl on Apr 9, 2019 12:17:46 GMT -5
The symptoms could be just of external. I need more logic about why these are of internal. The black is fin rot and its severe. i mean that he lost almost all of a fin in about three days. I've already explained this. You've still yet to post KH & GH of water (including tap water) as per the articles. All we are doing is going after symptoms, which is better than noting, but as per the articles this is usually a recipe for failure & I think at this point it is too far along I did a bath with 4 teaspoons of salt instead of three and the fish started to breathing fast. It could because i added one more teaspoon? or because of the stress or what? Should i continue doing more baths because of this? 4 teaspoons per what volume of water? This amount of salt for a Betta in this shape would be for 2-4 gallons A Fish bath, especially with the symptoms we are dealing with requires more than salt. This generally includes salts (often NaCl & Epsom) along with MethyBlu and medication (AAP Bettamax at one capsule per 2.5 gallons of bath water often is a good substitute for all of the above) In tank, AAP Spectrogram should been being used We are now going around in circles as it appears you are not following advice here or in the articles Carl
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Post by bluetastic on Apr 10, 2019 11:46:50 GMT -5
The symptoms could be just of external. I need more logic about why these are of internal. The black is fin rot and its severe. i mean that he lost almost all of a fin in about three days. I've already explained this. You've still yet to post KH & GH of water (including tap water) as per the articles. All we are doing is going after symptoms, which is better than noting, but as per the articles this is usually a recipe for failure & I think at this point it is too far along I did a bath with 4 teaspoons of salt instead of three and the fish started to breathing fast. It could because i added one more teaspoon? or because of the stress or what? Should i continue doing more baths because of this? 4 teaspoons per what volume of water? This amount of salt for a Betta in this shape would be for 2-4 gallons A Fish bath, especially with the symptoms we are dealing with requires more than salt. This generally includes salts (often NaCl & Epsom) along with MethyBlu and medication (AAP Bettamax at one capsule per 2.5 gallons of bath water often is a good substitute for all of the above) In tank, AAP Spectrogram should been being used We are now going around in circles as it appears you are not following advice here or in the articles Carl I am not sure if i am going to post the gh and kh. i have a lot of problems to resolve first. I need to think about doing the gh and kh. About three liters the 4 teaspoons. But I didn't the baths yesterday because of the poor guy with a lot of stress. I am thinking of buying your products. His main tank is the bowl of about a gallon. He has severe fin rot. Can I treat it using kanaplex and furan 2 or just one of these? I am trying to follow your advice. I just check the temperature and do 100% water changes daily. I am giving him oxitetraciclina just for now and i am trying to get kanaplex and furan 2.
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Apr 11, 2019 10:58:28 GMT -5
I think that Carl is trying to tell you that it's not a good idea to treat with a medication before we have all the information. Treating with a medication could be more harmful if we don't have all the information or a waste of time if the stressor is not found out.
Carl recommended Spectrogram over Kanaplex and Furan 2.
That is too much salt for 3 liters. It would be 2 teaspoons or even 1. This could have been harmful for the fish.
I'm not sure if we can be much more help unless the advice already given is followed.
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Post by bluetastic on Apr 15, 2019 14:47:59 GMT -5
The guy is still alive but without eating for about 9 days. I am trying to fix the problem. maybe carl makes me a discount of his great store.
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Post by bluetastic on Apr 16, 2019 23:11:37 GMT -5
I purchased one
spectrogram bettamax super ich plus discomed pipzine super velvet plus wound control
and 24 small not medicated wonder shells.
I am making 100% water changes every 24 hours but sometimes on the second day after the water change and one bath per day or sometimes one baths per two days. I am using oxitetraciclina at about 62.5 mg at his 3 liters bowl every day and sometimes one dosage for two days, I dont see the guy eat. I give him brine shrimp and doesn't eat it. Not sure when the stuff will arrive to mexico but maybe around 6 to 10 days. The guys seems with little energy and moving a little bit. the guy seems with good willpower. I dont want to test the gh and kh because it could be very bad for my health. He seems still with severe fin rot and white and black on his fins. Not sure that the oxitetraciclina is working. the oxitetraciclina is just for the fin rot.
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Post by bluetastic on Apr 16, 2019 23:59:02 GMT -5
I have these things on hand
Methylene blue Malachite green Acriflavine Metronidazole Oxitetraciclina Prime seachem conditioner Cupramine paraguard a lot of salt Maybe my mother has epsom salt 20 liters tank two bowls of about 4 liters two heaters for 10 liters each one. one siphon. pellets tubiflex brine shrimp one thing for check the temperature gh and kh test kit conditioner bettasafe by bioma
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Post by Carl on Apr 17, 2019 9:32:56 GMT -5
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Post by bluetastic on Apr 17, 2019 12:55:37 GMT -5
Yes. I add three teaspoons of salt and double of the recommended dosage of the bottle. sometimes i do one bath per day or one bath per two days of about 30 minutes. but the fish doesn't move like the previous baths. Sometimes the temperature drops about 70f degrees on the 3 litters bowl. I am using a heater that is for 10 liters. but i dont turn on the heater at night when i am sleeping because it would be over heating and then is when the temperature drops a lot. i dont know if put the guy on to the tank will be a good idea. but he was a happy guy on the past on this bowl so probably he likes the bowl. Why add acriflavine? i dont use oxytetracycline on his bath but on his main bowl. not sure how many days and i dont know if this is working. I didn't test it. Please send me the info of the package to my gmail account. Sometimes the temperature drops about 70f degrees on the 3 litters bowl. I am using a heater that is for 10 liters. but i dont turn on the heater at night when i am sleeping because it would be over heating. What is next? I will read the articles.
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Post by Carl on Apr 18, 2019 8:53:16 GMT -5
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Apr 18, 2019 11:39:44 GMT -5
Maybe start over with the meds you get from Carl and the correct reading from the tank. Then Carl can make best recommendations based on the meds that he knows are best for the issue.
KH and GH are still important to know as they can be major stressors that are keeping the fish sick.
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Post by bluetastic on Apr 21, 2019 20:20:22 GMT -5
are you following the previous discussion and watching the photos, Carl? you told me this: As I have noted, there is no obvious Velvet, so treating for this will only add undo stress. so, i should add acriflavin? I did a bath using the double of the recommended dosage of the methylene blue and three teaspoons of salt on the fish, on about three liters of water with conditioner for about 30 minutes every two days and sometimes every day. he has about 12 baths now. the fish doesn't surf in the baths like others days. in this bath He was hitting the head a lot with the glass as if he wanted to escape and jumping. it could be because he had oxytetracycline on the main tank? i dont know how many dosages he was with oxytetracycline, and for how many days, he was around 8 maybe more dosages of about 62.5 mg sometimes every two days and sometimes every day. I stoped the oxytetracycline and the baths because of that. What do you think about the baths? When i could add more baths? what caused to hit his head? it was probably because of the salt or methylene blue but why? what should i do after the products arrive? Look at the photos. imgur.com/a/tEkMAfeimgur.com/a/IoVeNmnimgur.com/a/kTDaXGoLook at this photo carefully, it seems that the fin rot is on his body in the upper part. imgur.com/a/ckCvu5SProbably he was with a lot of stress because of the 100% water changes daily and maybe sometimes every two days, the medicine, the photos, the baths, the flashlight. Probably i will do the stuff of the gh and kh tomorrow or late on this night. but i dont have the ph ammonia nitrite and nitrate test kit. why should i use this to be very specific? maybe i am going to think about purchasing a test kit for this. Probably the products will arrive tomorrow. I tried giving brine shrimp a lot of different pellets, tubiflex and i see him that he is not eating them. he swims a little bit like the other days, he stays at the bottom of the tank, he doesn't breathe fast. sometimes but almost never when i see him but maybe its not important the breathing. Sometimes he surfs very fast like if he is desperate. he still has the yellow strip near his mouth when i put a flashlight on him.
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Post by Carl on Apr 22, 2019 9:25:02 GMT -5
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Post by bluetastic on Apr 22, 2019 20:29:23 GMT -5
What hole on his head?
Then i should continue doing baths considering what happened in the baths?
I dont have the ammonia ph nitrite and nitrate test kit. you still dont tell me why to use this. it doesn't have sense to me.
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Post by Carl on Apr 23, 2019 14:57:22 GMT -5
I never said a hole on the head. I was referring to the injury you noted Yes, a bath using Bettamax. Or Methylene Blue, Sodium Chloride Salt, Epsom salt should be done once per day From: www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2016/09/how-to-treat-sick-fish.htmlQuote from above article: "When you are asking others for help, whether it be online or at your local fish store, make sure you ALWAYS provide background first; including ALL water parameters (mineral Cations too), filtration, maintenance, feeding, & fish kept. Past fish treatment history is important too. As an analogy; your personal Doctor always has your history, takes your vital statistics, etc., so why should we expect those we are asking to help us with our sick fish to guess, especially when one considers we often are asking others to help us sight unseen and with far less tools at our disposal than a Doctor would have?
Here first are basic procedures to check off before treating any fish sickness issue: Make sure ALL water parameters are as they should be. This includes well known and obvious parameters as well as less obvious parameters. This is part of the "background issues I mentioned earlier. It is also important to know the parameters of any new water used for water changes, so as to make note of any changes that might happen in the aquarium after the water is changed (in other words a baseline)
INCLUDING:
Ammonia; under .5 ppm (best 0 or less in most circumstances) Exposure to high ammonia in the past can be a set up for opportunistic infections in the future due to gill & organ damage (Methylene Blue baths can sometimes help with gill damage, but more so if done immediately).
Ph; stable within the generally accepted target range of the fish to be kept (if the target range is 6.5 to 7.5, stable at any number there-in)
KH; this too can vary depending upon fish kept, but generally anywhere from 50 ppm to 150 ppm KH (carbonate hardness) can keep an aquarium from pH crashes and knowing your KH on a regular basis can also tell you if it drops rapidly even after adding buffers that your bio load is too high and/or water changes are not adequate. Further Reading: Aquarium Chemistry; KH (Carbonate Hardness)
Flow and oxygen levels; most persons do not have an oxygen test kit, so having a water flow turnover rate of 5 times for an average non-planted freshwater aquarium usually will indicate adequate oxygen levels
Bio Load & Decomposition & DOC; a high bio load, often compounded by decomposition of organic and high dissolved organic compounds will often be a breeding ground got Aeromonas and Saprolegnia. Fixing this is as important as any treatment regimen. High Nitrates (over 40-50 ppm) can also be a symptom of this issue too. Further Reading; *Bio Load in Aquarium or Pond *Aquarium Nitrates
Redox and Mineral Cations; this is an aspect of fish care that continued research both in and out of the hobby/industry is proving to be key. In diseases such as Columnaris, having a less than optimum Redox whether it be the electromagnetism of the water, missing mineral Cations, low water rH, low or non existent GH, or simply too many free radicals (oxidizers) making for an unbalanced Redox; this is a major aspect in whether you will be successful in treating or just as importantly not have this disease present in the first place (since it is an opportunistic infection).
Other diseases such as HLLE have a direct relation to Redox (or a Redox quality/balance measurement called Relative Hydrogen aka rH). In freshwater, rH should be 23 to 26, otherwise your aquarium may not be as conducive to good health as it could be.
As well GH is a measurement many forget the importance as it has a direct relation to osmoregulation, mineral Cations, Redox & more. For most FW aquariums your GH should be at least 150 ppm, but much higher is still OK and with some fish such as livebearers, puffers, Lake Malawi Cichlids and more; a higher GH is called for.
Further Reading; Aquarium Redox
Temperature & Temperature History; sudden or even gradual but pronounced swings in temperature can have a major impact on a fish, often with permanent internal organ damage that can lead to opportunistic infections that may not be curable due to slow organ failure. An example would be a fish such as a Betta exposed to 90F plus temperatures, this can result in permanent organ damage such as to the kidneys.I've given you the articles (which then cite even more information) which go into detail as to why this is one of the basics of knowing osmoregulation issues. Honestly, at this point I am not going to argue, you apparently do not want my help Good luck
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Apr 24, 2019 11:38:45 GMT -5
To treat any sick fish, you need water parameters first.
It would be like going into the doctors, saying you can't breath and expect them to just give you medations to fix it. They would run tests first. We need the tests to best help you.
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