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Post by jaypeecee on Mar 3, 2019 8:49:58 GMT -5
Hi Folks, The use of organic waste control products makes a lot of sense to me. But, on another forum, I read the following article/thread: www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/freshwater-general-articles/bacteria-freshwater-aquarium-185721/Part 2 of this article has this to say about waste control bacteria: "These bacteria have only one requirement to appear and live: organics. They compete with autotrophic bacteria for both oxygen and surface area; studies show that even in relatively clean environments, they occupy more than 50% of the available surface area. And given that they can reproduce within 15-60 minutes—compare this to the 12-32 hours required by nitrifying bacteria—you can see how easily these heterotrophic bacteria can overwhelm the system. In a filter, if sludge is allowed to increase, heterotrophic bacteria will multiply so fast they actually smother and kill the autotrophic nitrifying bacteria." and... "The best control is limiting organic carbon which comes from dead organic matter. In non-planted tanks this is more crucial, and here is where carbon filtration helps, since it adsorbs organic carbon which is essential for these bacteria. Regular partial water changes, minimal feeding, removal of any dead fish or plant matter, rinsing filter media often, never using products that purport to reduce sludge (my italics) - all these will aid in controlling heterotrophic bacteria. Live plants is one of the best methods; oxygen is released into the substrate, and plants assimilate the organic nutrients." Would anyone care to comment? Thanks in advance! JPC |
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Post by Carl on Mar 3, 2019 14:33:09 GMT -5
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Post by jaypeecee on Mar 4, 2019 17:11:48 GMT -5
Hi Carl, Many thanks for your reply. What I don't understand is why a reputable company like Seachem make products such as aquavitro remediation. Here is a link to this product: www.aquavitro.com/remediation.phpI note that you too consider Seachem to be one of the best in the business. So, why would they risk harming their excellent reputation by launching a product that is potentially unsuitable for use in aquaria? I plan to ask them about this but I am currently in discussion with Seachem about another product - aquavitro seed. JPC |
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Mar 5, 2019 12:15:43 GMT -5
I think there's a time and place to these products. There's plenty of ponds and aquariums that get out of balance for a long time, end up with a mulm layer. Then these bacteria supplements are useful.
Seachem has a great line, but there's a handful of products that people question the use of. Liquid carbon is another one. There's always new research that comes out also, so I can see why certain products get produced.
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Post by Carl on Mar 5, 2019 13:46:25 GMT -5
Devon made a great point. There is definitely a time and place for organic waste digesters such as this product. The problem comes from regular use or thinking you can cycle an aquarium with this product As for SeaChem, no company is perfect and of course sometimes it comes down to a matter of opinion or different experience. An example where I definitely disagree with a SeaChem prodoct (which is why AAP does not sell it) is "Focus". I've never documented any improvement in treatment using this product, especially when "best aquarium husbandry procedures" are being followed such as I outline in my "Aquarium Disease Prevention" article. Reference: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquarium_Disease.htmlCarl |
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Post by kagome on Mar 5, 2019 17:55:51 GMT -5
You know, I just got into a huge argument with a guy on Reddit who said that Cycle was essential for getting a tank set up. After arguing with him back and forth, it became evident that he had no idea how the nitrogen cycle actually works. He swore up and down that you could keep aerobic bacteria alive in a sealed bottle.
I think to a certain extent, Seachem sells certain products because they sell. I'm a big believer in their products, but like Carl said, no company is perfect. They even admit that some of their claims can't be backed up by scientific evidence, like their claim that Prime helps detoxify nitrite and nitrate.
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Mar 6, 2019 11:52:27 GMT -5
You know, I just got into a huge argument with a guy on Reddit who said that Cycle was essential for getting a tank set up. After arguing with him back and forth, it became evident that he had no idea how the nitrogen cycle actually works. He swore up and down that you could keep aerobic bacteria alive in a sealed bottle. I think aerobic bacteria can be kept alive in a seal bottle. Fritz has a live bacteria that's all aerobic and stability is aerobic and hetero. It is much more costly and some have to be refrigerated.... Carl might know more here. I think there's a lot of products that are questionable. I'm thinking of another handful. |
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Post by Carl on Mar 7, 2019 9:51:02 GMT -5
You know, I just got into a huge argument with a guy on Reddit who said that Cycle was essential for getting a tank set up. After arguing with him back and forth, it became evident that he had no idea how the nitrogen cycle actually works. He swore up and down that you could keep aerobic bacteria alive in a sealed bottle. I think aerobic bacteria can be kept alive in a seal bottle. Fritz has a live bacteria that's all aerobic and stability is aerobic and hetero. It is much more costly and some have to be refrigerated.... Carl might know more here. I think there's a lot of products that are questionable. I'm thinking of another handful. I think you meant "Anaerobic" which is easily kept alive in a bottle or dried. Aerobic is more difficult. Stability uses a proprietary synergistic blend. Either way, Cycle is junk if used for cycling, but OK to used as a waste digestor in a healthy established aquarium Carl |
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Post by jaypeecee on Mar 9, 2019 16:03:49 GMT -5
I think aerobic bacteria can be kept alive in a seal bottle. Fritz has a live bacteria that's all aerobic and stability is aerobic and hetero. It is much more costly and some have to be refrigerated.... Carl might know more here. I think there's a lot of products that are questionable. I'm thinking of another handful. I think you meant "Anaerobic" which is easily kept alive in a bottle or dried. Aerobic is more difficult. Stability uses a proprietary synergistic blend. Either way, Cycle is junk if used for cycling, but OK to used as a waste digestor in a healthy established aquarium Carl Carl, I'm now confused. In a previous post, you said "This is why products such "Hagen Cycle" should be avoided", which I read at face value. But above you appear to be saying something different. My reason for starting this thread was to decide if it was OK to use organic waste control products. Byron seems to think that this is unacceptable. But, if I understand you rightly, you're now saying that it is OK to use these products in a healthy established aquarium. The crux of this seems to revolve around the acceptability, or otherwise, of having heterotrophic bacteria present in the aquarium environment. Please clarify. Thanks. JPC P.S. I apologize in advance if I'm talking gibberish - it's been a long day! |
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Post by Carl on Mar 10, 2019 10:12:14 GMT -5
Products like Cycle should definitely be avoided if you are planning to use it for what its name falsely advertises, that is name cycling a new aquarium or an aquarium where the bio cycle is weak for what ever reason such as after medication treatment. Use for simple organic water digesting such as over feeding of a healthy established aquarium is K, as long as it is not done too often. My Nitrogen Cycle article explains this in more depth in the Nitrification section: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/nitrogen_cycle.html#nitrificationCarl |
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Post by jaypeecee on Mar 11, 2019 7:32:45 GMT -5
Products like Cycle should definitely be avoided if you are planning to use it for what its name falsely advertises, that is name cycling a new aquarium or an aquarium where the bio cycle is weak for what ever reason such as after medication treatment. Use for simple organic water digesting such as over feeding of a healthy established aquarium is K, as long as it is not done too often. My Nitrogen Cycle article explains this in more depth in the Nitrification section: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/nitrogen_cycle.html#nitrificationCarl Hi Carl, Thanks for the clarification. I agree with you that Hagen Cycle is a misleading product name and I never use it. For setting up a nitrifying biological filter, I use Tetra SafeStart with which I have had a lot of success. Your statement above suggests that it would indeed be OK to use Seachem's aquavitro remediation for its intended purpose, i.e. breaking down organic waste. Seachem recommend using this product "with additions of livestock or the disruption of the biofilter through cleaning or medications". So, that's what I propose to do. JPC |
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Post by Carl on Mar 12, 2019 10:47:01 GMT -5
Your statement above suggests that it would indeed be OK to use Seachem's aquavitro remediation for its intended purpose, i.e. breaking down organic waste. Seachem recommend using this product "with additions of livestock or the disruption of the biofilter through cleaning or medications". So, that's what I propose to do. JPC Yes, this is the best use for this product Carl |
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Post by kagome on Mar 15, 2019 20:05:20 GMT -5
I agree that the name "Cycle" is misleading.
If you actually could bottle the aerobic bacteria you need to establish a biological filter, that company would rake in billions.
Deceptive aquarium products drive me nuts. I really think they ought to be illegal frankly.
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Post by Carl on Mar 16, 2019 10:08:11 GMT -5
Deceptive aquarium products drive me nuts. I really think they ought to be illegal frankly. Hagen the maker of Cycle is one of the worse in my experience in the industry. They have ALWAYS been about marketing, not quality, even when they come out with a decent product. As well, how they "game the system" makes Hagen a company started to avoid as far back as the early 90s. Many i the industry saw through them too, but when the industry started taking the trade shows public, it allowed Hagen to really use their marketing arm and discernment went out the window Carl |
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