Tiger barb strange deaths

[mcr]

I had a 36 gal bow front with a male angel fish,2 corydoras, a lemon bristlenose and 9 green tiger barbs. I kept them there for over six months with no problems. I have a 45 gal that was empty because I moved its inhabitants to a 55 gal. I drained about 50% of the water and vacuumed the gravel. I cleaned the glass and removed all the plants and soaked them in Exel to kill the algae. I put the plants back in and a new piece of driftwood. I also added black sand with the colored gravel. I refilled the tank and put the fish from the 36 into the 45. Six days later my wife was watching TV and looked over and saw the tiger barbs dying. She got as many as she could out of the tank, not knowing what was the cause. Six died in the first hour or so and two more the next day. The rest of the fish never showed any sign of stress or illness. The remaining barb was fine after that, so eventually I got 4 more. Six weeks later i didn’t like the setup so I rearranged the 45 gal again, adding more black sand, rearranging the plants and getting a larger piece of driftwood. I added the tiger barbs back to the 45 and within a day or two they started hiding and looking ill. I moved them to my 75 gal with three young angel fish and a paradise fish. They perked up immediately and were fine so I added three more a week or two later so I was back to 9. I added a female angel fish to the 45 and 8 zebra danios, all was well. I added an angel fish to the 75 and all was well. I waited a week or so and added the last angel fish I had from another tank and that did not go well. After all this time of keeping angel fish with tiger barbs the barbs never went after the angels. The moment I put the fifth angel in the tank the barbs went nuts and wouldn’t leave them be. I thought when I put the tigers back with the angel in the 45 that he was the issue so since he had a friend and wasn’t chasing the danios I would try one more time. I swapped the tiger barbs and danios. This time I thought I was good. The angels chased them only a little and they seamed to get along. After four days they seemed to be hiding a lot. Yesterday they didn’t come out when I feed them so I moved them to a quarantine tank. One I found dead and one was missing. The dead one was my original survivor from the first batch. Today the barbs seem fine and they’re eating. Do you think that stress from being chased could cause fish to all die at once like the first time? I checked the water each time I had a problem and it’s always 0-0-30 or less. I’ve been doing a lot of reading about PH,GH,KH. Still don’t understand it well, but I will keep re-reading until I get it. This time I checked PH as well. I did a 30% water change two days before I put them in and it was 7.2. Yesterday was five days since I put them in and it was 6.8. I don’t know how fast it dropped but if it was that then wouldn’t all the fish be affected? If it was PH shock from the transfer wouldn’t that show up as soon as I put them in instead of days later? My tap water is 7.4 PH. Any help is appreciated. I hope this wasn’t to long or confusing. Thanks

[mcr]

Also the KH is 2 and the GH is 3

[Carl]

If I was able to follow the "storyline" properly, it seems the new gravel and/or the driftwood might have introduced something, whether chemical or biological.

Make sure to always rinse gravel well (using saltwater is not a bad idea too). As well soaking driftwood in saltwater is suggested

some driftwood soaking tips found here:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/MangoWood.html

The releasing of hydrogen sulfide may also have been a factor
www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2008/11/hydrogen-sulfides.html

As for stress from chasing, while fish can and do die from such stress, this does not kill a fish immediately (unless the fish are outright killed other fish), rather opportunistic infections such as Columnaris will kill the fish after the bacteria goes virulent
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Columnaris.html

Carl

[devonjohnsgard]

Make sure the KH is 3-5 to prevent the pH swings and use AAP wonder shells to constantly add electrolytes. The GH shows you could use the electrolytes. The KH of 2 and acids in the tanks are driving the pH down. That's really hard on fish.

I don't know if that answered the questions about the barbs. It's strange most died, but that tells me there was a water issue that stressed them. The immunities could have been weak... or they were from a weak batch and couldn't handle the changes.

[mcr]

I don’t think it’s the driftwood, I scrubbed the algae off of it and soaked it for 24 hrs in water with excel in it. It came out of another tank of mine with no problems. Plus I moved the piece that was in there when they all died at once to a 75 gal tank and have had no problems for over a month now. I was concerned about whether or not I cleaned the sand well enough. If it was something in the sand that caused it would it still be there after all this time? And why does it just seem to effect the tiger barbs and no other fish in the tank?

[mcr]

Actually, the first piece of wood came with the fish from the 36 gal tank. The larger piece I put in later is the one I scrubbed and soaked.

[kagome]

When I read this, I had the same thought as Carl about possible hydrogen sulfide. Deep sand beds can start to develop pockets of anaerobic bacteria that put off hydrogen sulfide gas. It builds up in the substrate and when the gas pockets burst they release the hydrogen sulfide into the water. I'm not saying that's what's happened in this case, but you mentioning adding sand to the tank made me think of it. Why it would affect only the barbs and not the other fish, I'm not sure. Be sure to mix up your sand bed so that it gets exposed to oxygen and cuts down on the possibility of hydrogen sulfide.

Here's a simple breakdown of GH and KH.

GH (general hardness) is the measure of how much calcium and magnesium is dissolved in the water. It's important for a few reasons:

• Osmotic pressure - water is always trying to balance itself, it's very zen that way. If there are a lot of minerals on one side of a membrane, and not a lot on the other, water naturally pushes more towards the side that has the higher mineral content. So if there's way more minerals inside a fish's body than there is in the water they're swimming in, this increases osmotic pressure. Freshwater fish constantly absorb the water they're swimming in. If the osmotic pressure is higher because their water has a low mineral content, their bodies absorb more water. Then their bodies have to work harder to push the water back out as urine. The more effort their bodies have to put into pushing out the urine, the less energy they have to allocate to things like growth or their immune systems. And, going from water that has a high osmotic pressure to a low osmotic pressure (or vice versa) very quickly, doesn't give the fish's body a chance to adjust and acclimate. So this can cause osmotic shock, this can stress and kill fish, and it might even take a few days for it to happen.
• Electrolytes - just like humans, fish need calcium and magnesium to help their bodies function. We get most of our electrolytes from food but fish actually get them from the water they swim in. As freshwater fish push out water as urine, some calcium and magnesium goes with it. If there's little to no calcium/magnesium in the water, the fish don't have a way to replenish these very important trace minerals.

KH (carbonate hardness) is the measure of how much carbonate and bicarbonate is dissolved in the water. This is also known as the water's alkalinity. This measures how much acid the water can neutralize without the pH changing. Aquariums constantly produce acids. The biggest is from nitrate (NO₃-). Since nitrate is a biproduct of the beneficial bacteria colonies in the tank, it's almost always present, even when you take really good care of your tank. If the water has a high KH, no big deal. The KH just neutralizes the acid and you're good to go.

You also mentioned that you have driftwood. Driftwood leaches tannins (tannic acid) that will also need to be neutralized by the KH.

The higher your KH is, the higher and more stable your pH will be. Low KH can mean your pH can drop rapidly and then swing back and forth every time you do a water change. No bueno.

You might want to consider adding Wonder Shells for GH and either Malawi or Alkaline buffer to keep a more stable KH.

[mcr]

Thanks for all the good information. I’m definitely going to be more careful acclimating fish from now on between my own tanks. I’ve never paid a lot of attention to GH and KH before but I guess I better start. Time to stop worrying about what happened and work on not letting it happen again. I don’t think it came from the sand though because I just added the sand to the gravel before I added the barbs. So how much is too much sand? And how long would it take for that gas to build up?
Thanks again

[Carl]

Too much sand can vary depending upon sand size and cleaning methods.
Fine sand (#00) can produce Hydrogen sulfides in much more shallow sand beds. Not vacuuming all areas can also allow for HS production (although plant roots can help negate this)

Further Reading:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquarium_cleaning.html
www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2006/08/aquarium-gravel-which-size.html

Carl

[kagome]

Dec 13, 2018 2:12:24 GMT -5 mcr said:

Thanks for all the good information. I’m definitely going to be more careful acclimating fish from now on between my own tanks. I’ve never paid a lot of attention to GH and KH before but I guess I better start. Time to stop worrying about what happened and work on not letting it happen again. I don’t think it came from the sand though because I just added the sand to the gravel before I added the barbs. So how much is too much sand? And how long would it take for that gas to build up?
Thanks again

What kind of sand is it?

[mcr]

I don’t remember the name brand. I could find out. I got it at the only aquarium store around hear that isn’t petco or petsmart. It said it was inert.

[mcr]

Some of the sand was from an unknown source.

[mcr]

Dec 13, 2018 9:45:09 GMT -5 Carl said:

Not vacuuming all areas can also allow for HS production (although plant roots can help negate this)

Further Reading:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquarium_cleaning.html
www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2006/08/aquarium-gravel-which-size.html

Carl

So am I supposed to vacuum sand deep like you do gravel? When I first set up a tank with sand they told me to hold the vacuum at a 45 degree angle and just do the surface. Also I’ve read that MTS help prevent HS. Is this true? I already have them in a few tanks as they are good hitchhikers.
Thanks, Mark

[Carl]

Dec 14, 2018 20:34:07 GMT -5 mcr said:

So am I supposed to vacuum sand deep like you do gravel? When I first set up a tank with sand they told me to hold the vacuum at a 45 degree angle and just do the surface. Also I’ve read that MTS help prevent HS. Is this true? I already have them in a few tanks as they are good hitchhikers.
Thanks, Mark

Unless the sand is being moved by some means, such as plant root growth or Malaysian Trumpet Snails (MTS), then you need to insert the gravel vacuum all the way in, especially with fine sand.
As for Malaysian Trumpet Snails, these are good for aerating #3 gravel, but fine/deep sand is more questionable.

As for your substrate source, if coated/colored, this can slowly peel off and allow for Hydrogen Sulfide production. also soe chaep colored sands are made from a toxic coat (especially those made in China), rather than safe epoxy based

Carl

[mcr]

If I push the tube all the way down how do I keep from sucking all the sand out of my tank? I was getting sand even just vacuuming the surface.

[mcr]

I was reading the article you linked to and it said not to vacuum below the first half inch so I’m still confused but I think I might have it. Vacuum deep if there are no plants but shallow and careful around plants. Kink the hose to stop sand from going out.
Thanks, Mark

[devonjohnsgard]

I believe that article talks about saltwater article and freshwater you would want to dig deep. Even with salt you want to depending on how you have the substrate layered. If I end up with sand in the bucket, I just scoop it out and put it back.

[mcr]

Well, I may have to change the way I do things. Right now I drain the tanks into a five gallon bucket set up with a pump and float switch. If I put the sand back in the tank I would be cross contaminating all my tanks. May have to do like I do in the guppy tank and drain into a separate bucket first. In the guppy tank I need to put any fry back I may suck up. Sometimes they swim right in seemingly on purpose. I used to connect the vacuum straight to a cordless transfer pump and strait out side. That worked quite well but I could no longer stand the high pitched noise the pump put out. Plus any sand sucked up went straight outside.
Thanks, Mark

[kagome]

My Dad's 55 gallon has a sand bed. We use a siphon with a REALLY long lift tube that goes almost to the top of the tank. We kink the hose to slow down the flow. If sand makes it halfway up the tube we just lift it so that it falls back down. We also stir the sand up as much as possible with the lift tube as we're going. That tank is pretty heavily stocked. There's a BIG Synspilum Cichlid (I've eaten fish HALF the size of Pinky) in there so the substrate has to be kept really clean.

I would definitely recommend getting a gravel vac with a long tube to make things easier.

It could be that the "unknown" sand is made of aragonite and this is what it increasing GH/KH.

Guppy fry do seem to love taking a ride in the gravel vacuum. Guppies seem to have a death wish. They have absolutely no sense of "this thing is huge and could hurt me." Instead, they seem to go, "I see movement of some kind. Let's see if that big thing will feed me!"

[mcr]

I have a 24 in tube for each of the large tanks and trimmed them down so they came right to the top of the tank. They seemed to hard to use when they were taller than the tank. I think I just got some misinformation about the sand vacuuming when I started. I’m going to go clean a couple tanks right now so I’ll see how this new information works out for me. I agree, guppy fry swim right into my net also.
Thank, Mark